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  • S23PSC Imola: September 28, 2012
September 28, 2012, 10:35:47 PM +0100 - Imola (2007+) - UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Porsche Cup (GT)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Piero Mercaldo
 Squadra Padova Corse
Porsche 910 GT 1967 3 +0.316
115.018mph
1 51:54.671
111.726mph
31 1:39.204
113.155mph
Dunlop  
NickyIckx
 SuperCup Pulse Racing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 7 +2.570
112.422mph
2 +11.308
111.321mph
31 1:39.077
113.300mph
Dunlop  
Pedro vd Berg
 SuperCup 7Porsche7
Porsche 910 GT 1967 8 +4.797
109.969mph
3 +1L
107.611mph
30 1:41.225
110.896mph
Dunlop  
clouds
 SuperCup Team Shadows
Porsche 910 GT 1967 2 +0.217
115.135mph
4 +3L
113.294mph
28 1:37.168
115.526mph
Dunlop  
Hristo Itchov
 HikiWazaRacing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 1 1:37.281
115.392mph
5 (+1) +0.067
113.292mph
28 1:36.810
115.953mph
Dunlop  
Marco Mercaldo
 Squadra Padova Corse
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +1.678
113.435mph
6 +11L
109.142mph
20 1:39.787
112.494mph
accident
Dunlop  
b_1_rd
 Clark-Hill Racing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 9 +4.879
109.881mph
7 +20L
104.346mph
11 1:42.739
109.262mph
Disco
Dunlop  
natan5
 NVRacing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 6 +1.764
113.337mph
8 +26L
107.054mph
5 1:40.216
112.012mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Cookie
 SuperCup Team Shadows
Porsche 910 GT 1967 4 +0.880
114.357mph
9 +31L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
UKGPL 8
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 10 10 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

After lots of quarrels in this series, it seems a lot of the drivers lost interest in this wonderfull championship!

I recommend that the drivers read the rules of the rolling start, to know whom to follow and to keep their grid position!


Server replay time: 0h00m48s

Marco overtakes Axel at the rolling start and makes no sign to let him retake his grid position.


Server replay time: 0h44m28s

Hristo follows Sergio into Aqua Minerale and tries to get alongside.
Sergio drives the racing line into a corner where there is no place for 2 cars. Hristo lifts but slides to the left and rearends Sergio.

The victim made no mistakes and was driving their normal line at normal speed. The shunter had lost control on the approach to the braking zone and consequently braked later than intended.


Server replay time: 0h45m27s

Sergio keeps the racing line into the inside of the long lefthander over the hill. Hristo tries to use the tow but he has to lift as there is no room left on the inside.
Although Hristo has the tow and is carrying more speed Sergio has the lead and is entitled to take the racing line. There was no contact on the replay and Sergio certainly was not weaving or trying to make a blatant blocking move.


Server replay time: 0h47m02s

Nearly the same situation as before but into Tamburello.
Hristo gets a better drive out of the final corner and is able to get his car almost ( but not quite) alongside Sergio's.
Sergio keeps the racing line that cuts into the inside of the long lefthander, but this time the cars collide...
Both drivers lose sight of each other as they come around the right hand curve just before the S/F line. From this point on neither driver can see the other car.
Both drivers should have been more carefull!

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Porsche Cup (GT) - Imola - Sep 28  (Read 8833 times)
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2012, 08:41:29 PM +0100 »

Hristo was not beside me. After the last corner preceding the S/F line, I've turned my head (with TrackIR) and I haven't seen him at my left side also if I heard his engine near (and in fact the replay shows clearly that there was space between us). Since he was beside me several times during the previous laps and after he kicked me out at Acque Minerali, I thought it was not the case to let him take the inside so I just followed the race line thinking that since he has the full control of the situation because he saw me while I didn't see him, he would have managed to stay at a safer distance. Instead if you watch out the replay, he neither braked nor lifted his foot. I'm in front of him so I think to have the right. I can decide where to go and when (if I'm not overlapped and...I was not) and I can do this once (if this happens more than once on the same piece of track, we could think to a blocking attempt but...it was not so). At Acque Minerali there are not so much points where to pass during braking and lesser during acceleration and indeed I think there is only one, that was why I remained so surprised of the strange overtaking attempt from Hristo in a place with inverse slope that bring you to the outside if you make a mistake (and he have lost control of his car there). If I should have made an overtake attempt there, I would have tried at the outside line having enough room, or I could have waited for a mistake, certainly not with a car that is on the race line where only one can pass.
The story with Hristo...about his gentle little pushes on my back, is now old and the discussion are old the same way but...they still are not over. At Brands (PSC season 21) I've got a "very ambitious overtake" (2 places lost) because while I was BESIDE Natan Vix, he closed the turn coming to the inside where I still was.  Tongue
The question is...Is Hristo a different driver than me ? Has he differents rights ? If it is not so, then the modders were already quite lenient with him !

What I gather from this is you are clueless about racing etiquette and maneuvers, Sergio. I don't have to be completely beside you for you to leave me space. You can't just open the line and then suddenly decide to take it back, after we run on two different lines for the whole previous straight and I'm in your blind spot. The simple fact that I'm not visible in your mirrors goes to show that I'm somewhere on your side and you were very well aware of that fact. If you haven't been, you would have gone back to the ideal line through the final flat out right-hand corner that leads onto the s/f straight. Instead you turned to the right, to give me room, then you turned into the ideal line at the s/f line, unnecessarily, because you could have kept going straight, just like I did when you were beside me 1-2 laps ago. Just because you were slightly ahead does not give you any right to turn anywhere you want, especially when the cars are at such close proximity.

And what am I supposed to do in such a situation where I barely see you on my right side, we're both going flat out, I have the ideal line which also happens to be the inside line for the next corner? Are you saying I should just suddenly decide to lift up randomly, without reason? Why should I expect you to suddenly chop in front of me instead of going straight, which you could do effortlessly? It is obviously your decision to just chop in front which leads to the accident, not my actions. And you also tend to do that a lot when you're being attacked, not just in this situation. I have to take evasive action to avoid hitting you, just because you decide to change line in the last possible moment, even though you have me right next to you, making an attack in the open space you left prior to that. It doesn't work like this, particularly online, with these cars which carry a lot of momentum and have little grip, and with GPL's warp contact reactions. To me that's just dirty driving, taking advantage of the situation to force the other driver to hit you and then blame the other driver later on. If you want to keep driving like this, then enjoy, but I'm not taking part in such low standard racing.

And please don't even bother to discuss my driving of the past, as you need to learn a lot first before you do that, because it's always such judgement on your (and other people) behalf which leads to such completely avoidable incidents, where you think you can do anything when you are slightly in front, that you can just change lines and block and chop the other driver's path. No, you cannot and it will always end up in a collision when you do, because once a driver behind commits to a line to get alongside you, you have no right to swerve anymore. This led to many contacts over the past few seasons with you, with Nathan, with Ronnie, with JR, with Nicky and with some other people. Show me one such situation where the roles were reversed and I moved like that to cause a collision. Also show me one such instant where drivers like Evil, like Art, like Tim, like Joe, like many other, would do what you usually do. You won't find any, because they don't do that. I've raced with them wheel to wheel, very closely, lap after lap, sometimes for a full race distance, without an issue. How is that I can race perfectly fine with all of them, but not you? Think on that before you jump to conclusions and accuse me of things that are a consequence of your own actions.

Not to be devils advocate (well maybe I am) but could that not then go to the opposite extreme whereby someone just has to plonk their car to the side (out of your mirrors) and you are thereby impelled to concede / take an outside and slower less favorable line? It's a difficult one and I guess 'amount of overlap' was the obvious way to decide when the rules were written. There might be a better way...

Not if it's a flat out piece of road and you can keep the outside line anyway, and especially when you've followed the other driver from the previous corner all the way and have had the chance to judge the difference in speed, the change in position, the sound of his car and so on. Especially when you first decide to give room, to keep a certain line, then take a huge risk by suddenly deciding enough is enough and move into the path of the other car, without being forced to, without even defending a position by doing so. This is what happened here.

As for it happening at a corner which closes in, with a braking zone, it is again a very risky thing to first open the door then close it. Why? Because if you want to block the inside line, just position yourself there to begin with, before the braking zone. Once you start braking and someone launches on your inside, even if you're still in front at turn in point, you are taking a big risk by turning into the ideal line by relying blindly on the other driver not having any overlap with you. You should all know well how it's impossible to do anything once you are braking on the limit, once you commit to a line. Once a driver in front turns in on you, there is nothing you can do but watch the collision unfold. That's why you have even in modern F1 the defensive driving rule where if a driver wants to defend, they have to position themselves in advance, not change direction in the last moment. And with the cars we drive, it's even more imperative that we do it that way, because we can't change speed or direction as quickly as modern F1 cars.

When I'm being attacked, if I want to defend properly, I will position myself on the inside prior to a corner and just keep that line. That way it's all predictable for the other driver, then can try go on the outside. If I instead keep the outside line and I see someone attack on the inside, I will never turn in into the ideal line unless I'm 100% sure I'm in front. Otherwise I'll just yield. To me that's respectful driving and it prevents unnecessary incidents. You have to be able to accept when you're being passed and when you lose a position. Some people in this league are unable to do that and become desperate in the manner they defend, which is why they always end up seemingly victims of incidents, but those are incidents which they create by their own desperate defensive driving, putting drivers behind in positions where it's impossible to avoid contact.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 09:05:05 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2012, 09:46:22 PM +0100 »

This led to many contacts over the past few seasons with you, with Nathan, with Ronnie, with JR, with Nicky and with some other people. Show me one such situation where the roles were reversed and I moved like that to cause a collision.

Please leave me out of this one as life is too short to go through all the past misdemeanors of myself and other drivers, including yourself H. For the record last season Joe wiped me out completely on the way to victory at Zolder but at least he had the decency to apologise. We all make mistakes and I for one appreciate the efforts of the moderators to make rulings on incidents whether I think I'm to blame or not. I could not do their job, but you can always volunteer yourself if you think you could do better.

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« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2012, 11:04:05 PM +0100 »

I've waited you were coming alongside in the straight preceding the sf line but at sf line I've watched at 9oc and you were not there so I've calculated you were remained near me but behind me so I decided to protect the inside otherwise I would have risked another knock on me at tamburello and thus I've moved slowly to the inside. The previous laps you were beside me and I've not taken any bad move in other words...when you said I've had 4 or 5 circumstances leading to accidents with certain drivers, I can reply that you had more than these circumstances only with me and I don't speak about the others, saying a casual name Huh Alak !!! During Silverstone (UKGPL Vs GPFun), you gave him a little push also and...bye bye, you won obviously !!! Very good. Yes, you have raced a long time before me but...if this is the result, fellow, I think you've lost your time !

And last but not least, if I'm clueless about GPL etiquette, you are clueless about human etiquette.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 11:23:53 PM +0100 by clouds » Logged

Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2012, 11:27:32 PM +0100 »

This led to many contacts over the past few seasons with you, with Nathan, with Ronnie, with JR, with Nicky and with some other people. Show me one such situation where the roles were reversed and I moved like that to cause a collision.

Please leave me out of this one as life is too short to go through all the past misdemeanors of myself and other drivers, including yourself H. For the record last season Joe wiped me out completely on the way to victory at Zolder but at least he had the decency to apologise. We all make mistakes and I for one appreciate the efforts of the moderators to make rulings on incidents whether I think I'm to blame or not. I could not do their job, but you can always volunteer yourself if you think you could do better.



You're taking it out of context. I was talking about aggressive defensive driving and you're one of the drivers who comes up to mind in regards to that. We might have not raced much, but in the few instances we did, I had to take evasive actions to avoid you multiple times during braking or at corner entry. When I am at fault I accept the blame without a problem, such as in the recent race in Works where I hit Doni. Don't simplify it or generalize, because it's about specific things that should either be addressed, otherwise nothing's going to change.

I've waited you were coming alongside in the straight preceding the sf line but at sf line I've watched at 9oc and you were not there so I've calculated you were remained near me but behind me so I decided to protect the inside otherwise I would have risked another knock on me at tamburello and thus I've moved slowly to the inside. The previous laps you were beside me and I've not taken any bad move in other words...when you said I've had 4 or 5 circumstances leading to accidents with certain drivers, I can reply that you had more than these circumstances only with me and I don't speak about the others, saying a casual name Huh Alak !!! During Silverstone (UKGPL Vs GPFun), you gave him a little push also and...bye bye, you won obviously !!! Very good. Yes, you have raced a long time before me but...if this is the result, fellow, I think you've lost your time !

And last but not least, if I'm clueless about GPL etiquette, you are clueless about human etiquette.

If we had arrived at Tamburello with you slightly ahead, I would have probably given up the position. Why didn't you wait? You say I was beside you in the previous laps, but the difference is, I was on the outside, the roles were reversed. I never turned into you, did I? It is always when you're being attacked on the inside that you decide to close the door, especially when it's the closing laps and victory is being decided.

As for Alak (I don't know him) and your example, does that prove anything at all? I don't even remember the situation, but what has that to do with what we're discussing and this particular situation? I don't recall that driver blaming me, nor being penalized. If I know I'm at fault I'd be the first one to admit it, and I've done it every time, but when the responsibility is shared, don't expect an apology. And in most incidents, the responsibility IS shared.

Everyone makes mistakes and I'm not an exception, but here we're talking about a consistent repetitive manner of defensive driving by you and some other drivers, who disregard the facts that end up leading to an accident and excuse themselves by stating that just because they are in front, they have the right to do whatever they want.

There is not a single instance where I blamed you for something you didn't have at least partial responsibility for, and you won't find such a situation either. You can go ahead and try. If I was as bad as you accuse me of being, how come I won so many races and championships, and had so few retirements? And how come I've been penalized much less than most drivers? And considering most of the time I've raced handicapped, most of those victories involved hard, wheel to wheel racing with other drivers, trying to compensate for my slower car. It is obvious that you simply can't realize what your role is in these situations that tend to unfold when we race, and how your own actions lead to incidents that can be avoided, without compromising the intensity of the racing and without surrendering positions. It's so simple, yet you and some others can't grasp it. It's about being predictable, braking and accelerating at the normal points, and simply holding your lines. How difficult is that? And if you want to defend a position, then do so, but not by sudden line changes when you have someone going so close to you, or by opening a door then closing it. That's just blocking, not defending.

As for human etiquette, you may pretend to be whatever person, but I'm here to race and racing etiquette is what I'm interested in.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 11:43:48 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2012, 11:51:00 PM +0100 »

Right... I guess you mean this race, Sergio:

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6393.msg111501#msg111501

Notice it's a completely different situation and I apologized, so find a better example to showcase my bad driving.  Smiley
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clouds
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2012, 12:12:47 AM +0100 »

...but I'm here to race and racing etiquette is what I'm interested in.

Yes one of the few truth you've said until now but, I'm witness to haven't seen neither one etiquette nor the other !
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2012, 01:40:48 AM +0100 »

Enough please guys. This is not adding anything valuable now.
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BadBlood

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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2012, 04:06:44 AM +0100 »

Enough please guys. This is not adding anything valuable now.

Blame it on Sergio really, as he obviously ignored pretty much most of the content in my posts, just to turn it around on some personal attacks that lead nowhere.

Care to discuss actual racing habits you have, Sergio, or you just have nothing else to add? I'm still waiting to hear what do you expect me to do in the situation that occurred, because I honestly don't see me or anyone else doing anything differently. It's basically you who does the move that leads to contact and I'm yet to hear even the slightest hint of you feeling responsible for that, so please spare me the childish personal attacks that add nothing to the discussion.
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2012, 02:25:46 PM +0100 »

Alak = Paolo Minotto.
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
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