UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Privateers Trophy (67) - Zandvoort (1948-72) - Sep 2

[il_lupo_mannaro]

Thx for your job Dave!

[bernie]

Thanks for the report

Although I accept the moderators decision I have to say I am a bit confused regards the penalty points 

If an incedent occurs outside of lap one red zone is it the usual procedure for moderation to take place without an incedent report being submitted by the driver / drivers

As far as I undertand the rules any such report should give notice to those involved  so they have a chance to explain there circumstances of why the incedent occured ?

afaik in this instance no such report was submitted , the only reference to this being my apology to Andreas in the above thread and his reply to me .

Or am I missing something here .

signed

confused 

[Ross Neilson]

Hi Bernie,

Looking at the incident report (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=11033.msg199367#msg199367) Andreas submitted it on Saturday but didn't include you as one of the drivers involved, so you didn't get the email from LM2 telling you about it.

Just a reminder to everyone when submitting reports, please include all drivers involved, so they have a chance to offer their point of view.

If you want to appeal Bernie then drop Paul a line with your version of events and it might be reviewed.

[AnGex]

Hi there,

sorry that I made some confusion here. 
But it was my first time here that I submitted an incident report, so I was not sure about what all to fill out and what may be not. So I hope next time I don´t miss to fill out anything. Or better I don´t have to submit anything. 
Also I am a bit confused myself now.

So long
Andreas

[bernie]

Kind of suprised to see I was awarded "blatant rear end shunt " plus the penalty points , also didnt understand why you did that Andreas concidering the post race comments , however its your choice, so fair doos , though I would have liked the oppertunity to reply as I consider the incedent was not completely my fault.

will have to look at the replay and see why I was such a bad boy 



 

[Ross Neilson]

Hi there,

sorry that I made some confusion here. 
But it was my first time here that I submitted an incident report, so I was not sure about what all to fill out and what may be not. So I hope next time I don´t miss to fill out anything. Or better I don´t have to submit anything. 
Also I am a bit confused myself now.

Andreas, you did the right thing, and as a newbie here it's not a big deal that you didn't quite fill in the form correctly. Don't worry about it, the important thing is that you were involved in an incident and reported it, which we encourage all drivers to do. Just remember next time to add in all the drivers that were involved.

If the moderator notices a driver is missing he should probably contact him to seek his point of view, but Dave is still quite new to the moderating so I think he can be excused missing that.

Bernie can still submit his report and the mods may choose to revise the penalty.

[bernie]

Am I to understand you want us to report every incedent ? if so you mods are gonna be pretty busy ,

As I understand things its not long since there was a discussion about the work load the mads had to get through being so heavy it was all a bit too much , and so it was decided to mod "reported incidents only " (excluding during the redzone)  which seemed to me to make sense .

I personally dont see the point in doing this unless the driver being reported is being reckless to the point where he is a nuicance to all others or is an persistant offender or such like .

I personally dont hold any grudge with Andreas and have always enjoyed racing with him and hope to do so in the future . for what its worth we have made contact with each other before , sometime he was wrong sometimes it was me .

I admit to rear ending him but didnt think the circumstances warranted a " blatant rear end "  it was not intentional , in actual fact I was caught out by Andreas speed through the corner before the straight which was slower than usual for this corner , It looked to me as if he was sliding wide , there was a gap up the inside and I went for it  , at the same time Andreas moved back to take up the proper racing line , by the time I realised my mistake it was too late . there was no malice or intent to have Andreas off the track

Make what you want of it , if you see fit to penalise me then OK thats fine by me , I accept your decision ,  wont be putting in an appeal because I think ive said here all there is to say on the matter 

 

[AnGex]

All right then,
so lets say like: After the Race is before the Race!
Looking forward to Snetterton. 

[Rainier]

Kind of suprised to see I was awarded "blatant rear end shunt " plus the penalty points , also didnt understand why you did that Andreas concidering the post race comments , however its your choice, so fair doos , though I would have liked the oppertunity to reply as I consider the incedent was not completely my fault.

will have to look at the replay and see why I was such a bad boy 

Sometimes moderation is not easy, ...and explanations too when english is not your native language.
That's why I made a draft of my moderation and asked confirmed moderators to have a look.

About this incident Bernie vs Andreas, the moderator who gave me his opinion, agreed with me. 
It's true I made an error not asking you, Bernie, your point of view.
But you should also have reported an incident after your collision with Andreas. Andreas had to do a Shift-R (if it was his second, hopefully not, he would have been out of the race), a stop and go and lost 3 positions.
Since your post, did you look at the replay ? 

[bernie]

As said , I spoke with Andreas post race and he seemed fine about it.   

Personally I'm not in favour of reporting incidents even when I have myself been a victim and had to do  S/R's .

I used to do reports ,  apart from it taking me ages due to me not being very computer literate, I found more often than not it left a bad taste in my mouth so decided not to bother anymore and leave that sort of thing to the mods .

On the subject of not doing incident reports I suggest you have a look at server replay on Lap5   0:06:59 

BTW

Your English is better than a whole lot of Brits I know 

And yes I do appreciate the work you boys do behind the scenes 

[Rainier]

On the subject of not doing incident reports I suggest you have a look at server replay on Lap5   0:06:59  

On lap 5, 6:59, I was alone and spun at Tarzan.
At 7:07, I was trying to come back on the track and saw several cars coming.
So I fully stopped my car at the external side of the turn and wait, but a Honda driven by Fabio Molteni partially loose control and collided with my car.
If I am not mistaken, Fabio's car had no consecutive problem but I had to made a shift-R, and yes, I did not report this incident.

there are 2 big differences with your incident vs Andreas :
1st : I was responsible but also the only victim # you were responsible but Andreas was the only victim
2nd : nobody did an incident report # Andreas reported  



BTW, I am the moderator of Privateers 67 races ...but also one of the participants. I think this is not correct.
So I propose to the moderation team to NOT do the next privateers 67 moderations.  

I stay available, in case of need, to moderate the future races where I am not one of the racers.  



Now, I am going to report an incident I had in Spa mod 65 race before someone make any remark.
 

[bernie]

Moltini lost control because he was trying to avoid you .
 

[Michael Turner]

To report or not to report, that is the question.
Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous overtaking...I could go on forever like this.

The problem at the moment is the inherent unfairness - Driver A is involved in an incident which is reported and is penalized; Driver B is involved in an identical incident which is not reported and thereby gains an advantage.
The ideal solution would be for races to be fully moderated as happened in days gone by but I can understand why the moderators would not wish to revert to that system.
The options therefore seem to be not to report any incidents (which could lead to pick up style free for alls) or to report all incidents - not in order to seek revenge or retribution but simply in the interest of fair play.
As might be surmised, I favour the latter option.

[Phil Thornton]

To report or not to report, that is the question.

It certainly is.

I rarely post about modding these days but I think in this case some historical perspective might be helpful.

When I started modding in Season 11 (that was before we were on SRou - we used Yahoo Groups) most moderators checked the race by reviewing the entire race from each driver's in-car view, noting down each incident as they were encountered (reviewing the race at x16 still takes a long time especially if there is a full grid of 19 drivers).  The advice on how to do this was a bit ad hoc so when I became Chief Mod I wrote a web page to help the other mods learn how to do it.  I described the 3 main methods the mods used.  These are listed as Method 1 (the one I was taught to use), Method 2 and Method 3 (as published here).  At that time there was no mechanism for reporting incidents.  The moderator reviewed the race and published the report, any appeals were subsequently handled via email.

When we moved onto SRou in Season 16 we were able to take advantage of the excellent court system where drivers could submit incident reports in advance of the moderator reviewing the race.  This way the moderator can take into account the drivers explanation before writing a report and not have to wait until an appeal was submitted.  This lead to the final moderating possibility, Method 4 - Reported Incidents.  To be honest when I wrote down this method my intention was not to encourage people to resolve their differences on the forum, thereby removing the moderators from the review process by not reporting the incident.  The intention was to seek some help from the drivers in identifying the incidents whilst obtaining their opinions at the same time.  What used to take me a long long time was trawling through the replays looking for incidents.  Deciding who was right and who was wrong should be the responsibility of the moderator not the drivers.  To reiterate the Reported Incidents method was proposed simply to save the moderator the effort in trying to identify all the incidents, not to encourage the drivers to settle matters themselves.

The question of should a driver race in the division they moderate has been raised before.  Ideally no, BUT it is not reasonable IMO for people to give up their free time unless they are content to do so.  If someone would rather moderate than drive then great, please moderate.  Given that most people don't, it is reasonable for a moderator to drive in the race.  Since they have to give up their own free time to turn up to start the server then why not race too?  There are plenty of checks in the moderating process (peer reviews) and to my knowledge nobody has ever tried to manipulate the results or incident reports for their own advantage.  After all what is the point, why would anyone want to win by cheating?  Where would the satisfaction be in that?  It is only a game; there is no prize money!