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  • S23GT Rouen: November 11, 2012
November 11, 2012, 09:39:14 PM +0000 - Rouen (1955-70) - UKGPL Season 23 (2012) GT Team Challenge
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Hristo Itchov
 HikiWaza GT
Ford GT40 MkI GT 1967 6 +1.413
119.506mph
1 56:40.130
116.200mph
27 2:01.908
120.034mph
Goodyear  
clouds
 GT International GT
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +1.324
119.593mph
2 +46.914
114.618mph
27 2:02.582
119.374mph
Dunlop  
Al Heller
 Bandit GT
Ferrari 330/P4 GT 1967 1 2:01.034
120.901mph
3 +47.494
114.599mph
27 2:01.284
120.652mph
Firestone  
Cookie
 GT International GT
Ferrari 330/P4 GT 1967 2 +0.065
120.836mph
4 +1:01.002
114.152mph
27 2:01.318
120.618mph
Firestone  
fpolicardi
 Team 7 GT
Ferrari 330/P4 GT 1967 4 +1.319
119.597mph
5 +1:01.531
114.134mph
27 2:01.066
120.869mph
Firestone  
Doni Yourth
 Fujikawa Racing GT
Lola T70 MkIII GT 1967 3 +0.978
119.932mph
6 +2:04.825
112.085mph
27 2:01.113
120.822mph
Goodyear  
EvilClive
 Fujikawa Racing GT
Mirage M1 GT 1967 7 +1.773
119.155mph
7 +1L
111.126mph
26 2:03.654
118.339mph
Firestone  
BadBlood
 Fujikawa Racing GT
Porsche 910 GT 1967 13 +18.670
104.744mph
8 +2L
105.509mph
25 2:09.042
113.398mph
Dunlop  
Stefano62
 Bandit GT
Porsche 910 GT 1967 12 +11.540
110.377mph
9 +3L
102.057mph
24 2:11.436
111.333mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Phil Thornton
 Green GT
Mirage M1 GT 1967 9 +5.974
115.214mph
10 +6L
108.364mph
21 2:05.375
116.715mph
Disco
Firestone  
Nigel Smith
 HikiWaza GT
Ford GT40 MkI GT 1967 10 +7.427
113.911mph
11 +20L
100.179mph
7 2:10.824
111.853mph
Disco
Goodyear  
blito
 Green GT
Ford GT40 MkI GT 1967 11 +10.541
111.215mph
12 +22L
100.299mph
5 2:13.538
109.580mph
accident
Goodyear  
s2173
 Team 7 GT
Ford GT40 MkI GT 1967 8 +5.735
115.431mph
13 +23L
98.630mph
4 2:09.259
113.208mph
Disco
Goodyear  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 14 14 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Hristo made a clever choice of car and exploited the Mk1's "No Pitstop" to win this race. However if we run GT's at Rouen in the future, the Ford GT40 Mk1 will not have such a great advantage because his fastest lap will alter the stop times.
Everyone else performed the required stops and I could not see anyone who was disco'd in the pits...maybe we are getting used to the pitstops??


Server replay time: 0

On Lap 4 Sky is closing on Jason as they approach the end of the straight and seeks to get even closer under braking. Unfortunately for Sky ( and for Jason!) the brakes in the Gt's are a little unpredictable and he locks up. It appears from the replay that Sky at least makes the attempt not to run straight into the back of Jason's car and swings to the inside. If Sky had stayed on the tarmac, we might just be discussing a scary moment, but he manages to get his car completely onto the grass on the inside of the corner. By this time Jason has commited to the corner and is taking a wide line to leave Sky some room in which to make the anticipated lunge up the inside.
Once on the grass Sky is just a passenger and cannot lose any more speed. He almost misses Jason, but with a supreme effort manages to clip his target right on the brake lights spinning Jason off the track.
Although this was very frustrating for Jason, I think I have to call this a racing incident with a cautionary advice note to Sky to be more careful when attempting late braking in GT's.
Sky did indeed lose some control under braking and it was his attempt to avoid rear ending Jason that caused him to go onto the grass and ultimately to break Jason's brake lights.

Racing Incident


Server replay time: 0

A few laps later Jason makes a perfectly clean pass on Stefano's Porsche as they pass the pits and gets back onto the racing line well before T1.
Jason's heavy Ford is obviously much slower than Stefano's nimble Porker through T1 but Stefano does not make any allowance for this and rear ends the hapless Jason.
This incident could have been avoided if Stefano had been a little more thoughtful.
There is a huge difference in the cornering speed of the Porsche and the bigger cars, but the muscle cars have the advantage on the straights. This incident perfectly illustrates this problem. Jason was able to pass the Porsche easily on the S/F straight but needed to take T1 at a much slower speed than Stefano's Porsche. Naturally Stefano wanted to chase the big Ford but he should have been aware of the difference in the corners.

simple rear end

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 23 (2012) GT Team Challenge - Rouen - Nov 11  (Read 8598 times)
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2012, 09:02:09 PM +0000 »

......... After he made his pit stop I passed in 2nd place with Al Heller closing on me very very fast, so I had to stay on gas as much as in qualification to stay in front of him. At last my gap from Al Heller has been around of 5/10th of a sec WOW !
That is what Clive is trying to achieve with the Pit Stop system.  Exciting racing with close finishes.  There is no other handicap system that can create a situation where cars of different pace can compete in the same race.  Over a season yes, but not in a single race.  As we have seen it is hard to get the Pit Stop times right, good data is simply not available.  Perhaps we should run the same set of tracks next season and use the lap times from this season to calculate the pit stop times?  Or we could just ask Hristo to test all the cars and use his lap times Wink.
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2012, 09:24:55 PM +0000 »

Years ago in the wireplay GPL league we used a system of handicaps based on driver and chassis performance. Basically the fastest guy would drive the slowest car and set a typical qualifying lap in it create a benchmark. Anyone going more than 1s/lap faster than the benchmark would be DQ'd from the race.. what that meat was that everyone spent a little time selecting the car that was right ( and adding extra fuel as ballast if needs be) and as result we often had side-by-side finishes....
/goes into to rose tint mode.... oh happy daze!
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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2012, 11:16:02 PM +0000 »

Years ago in the wireplay GPL league we used a system of handicaps based on driver and chassis performance. Basically the fastest guy would drive the slowest car and set a typical qualifying lap in it create a benchmark. Anyone going more than 1s/lap faster than the benchmark would be DQ'd from the race.. what that meat was that everyone spent a little time selecting the car that was right ( and adding extra fuel as ballast if needs be) and as result we often had side-by-side finishes....
/goes into to rose tint mode.... oh happy daze!

Unfortunately ballast gas is not checkable...I think none would base a race on drivers honesty  Tongue  (we in Italy say "raccomandare la pecora al lupo" meaning that you cannot use a wolf like a sheep dog), but on something perfectly definable and controllable.

About handicapping I only can say that in the GPFun championship where I raced for some years before UKGPL, were assigned fast cars at slow drivers and viceversa basing the choice on a reference time made from the faster guy with the slower car so the other drivers would choosen a car that would permit them to have a Best Combined laptime not lesser than the reference time in configuration for qualify (very light). That means also that usually the championship would have been won by a slow car with a fast driver like has been for Leo Grandis for instance. During the week preceding any event, the guys would tested the car right for them and they would have posted their laptimes on the forum and eventually would have changed their cars according to the rule of the reference time. In other words, a driver should choose a car that permit him to stay as close as possible to the reference time without going below it with the Best Combined lap time. With this rule often we have had 10 cars within a second and the reference time only a very few times has been beated during the qualify.
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2012, 10:16:40 AM +0000 »

Perhaps we should run the same set of tracks next season
Ooh no... Wink

Or we could just ask Hristo to test all the cars and use his lap times Wink.
Ooh no... Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2012, 01:16:04 PM +0000 »

I think it's wrong to use qualifying lap times for handicap calculations, because it doesn't take tire overheating and reliability into account. You can see how wrong it is if you do that with 67s F1 for example, where the Honda is slower in race pace than it is in qualifying pace, due to excessive tire overheating and the necessity to look after the engine. At the same time though, you cannot take lap times from an actual race either, because some of those are done with slipstream or may not be clean laps.

Qualifying times COULD work if you somehow take into account those other factors, but it will never be perfect.
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« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2012, 03:46:35 PM +0000 »

nine cars, have nine races in a season, cars choosen at random, obviously you have use each car once. OR mabe car is own choice, still only use each car once, this would add a tactical emelant. just thoughts.  Wink
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 03:49:32 PM +0000 by Gareth » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2012, 04:00:27 PM +0000 »

nine cars, have nine races in a season, cars choosen at random, obviously you have use each car once. OR mabe car is own choice, still only use each car once, this would add a tactical emelant. just thoughts.  Wink

That is no handicap though, since everyone has the same cars overall (though I guess there is no real handicap with pitstops either), and at some tracks you're most likely to see spec racing, such as at Spa, Monza, etc., because people would be preserving their fastest cars for those tracks. Not that it's a bad thing, it may lead to intense racing with slipstreaming battles. With pitstops as we have now, the only time battles happen, most of the time, is at the start and at the end of a race. In the middle of the race everyone runs pretty much on their own due to differing pitstop lengths.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:02:11 PM +0000 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2012, 04:07:09 PM +0000 »

ok point taken. with the two variables of driver ability and car pace i doubt there is a definitive answer. mabe just the homogeneous  approach and refining stop times is the best way. Also if a driver missed a race they would in effect not have to use the porker, drivers joining mid way throuht season etc..............ok bad idea lol Smiley
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:15:33 PM +0000 by Gareth » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 07:04:00 PM +0000 »

GPFun always have raced 67's F1 with that sort of handicap (Fulvio could say something about this) and this is the 11st season !
The goal has been to keep the cars closer from start to finish overcoming the difference in performances of each one.
The difficulty is to get a good reference time, good in the sense of realizing the best performances of the best driver with the slower car.
In this condition, it is very difficult to realize a RBL better than the qualify lap time by the front row drivers maybe because there were also drivers in training all the week long. Slower drivers were always in the back rows with fast cars and this has always been a danger because often they are not good car managers so for this reason GPFun adopted rolling starts.
Honestly speaking I've seen only 3 drivers winners of races in a Honda, Leo Grandis, Cosimo Monti and Paolo Minotto.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 07:24:11 PM +0000 by clouds » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 09:47:29 PM +0000 »

And GPFun are all REALLY quick. Nice guys though.
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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2012, 09:56:00 PM +0000 »

We are confusing things a little here.  The Pit Stop system is about levelling the cars not the drivers.  The GPFun system is about levelling the drivers.

It all depends what we want to achieve.  If we want a system where the drivers are treated equally and are free to take any car they choose then Pit Stops or Tokens is best.  If we want a system where the fast drivers are handicapped to give the slower drivers a chance to win then chassis allocation, chassis restrictions based on championship position or the GPFun system is best.

Ideally there would be enough drivers to have numerous divisions of the same mod so that drivers of similar ability could be grouped together and a system aimed at levelling the cars is all that would be required to precipitate close racing (just like UKGPL in the early days when we had 6 divisions running the 67 cars).  Personally I prefer systems that level the cars; I don't want to win just because a better driver has to compete with "one hand tied behind their back".  I like to win on merit but if I can't I'm happy to try to compete with someone at the same or better level who isn't handicapped in any way.  I'd much rather be second to Rainier, Hendy, Dave Curtis or Bernie et al in a fair fight that beat Hristo or Evil et al because they had to take the BT14 when I was allowed a MS7.
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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2012, 11:00:47 PM +0000 »

Uhm...I don't agree very much about the cars or drivers or both leveling that you said, just because in any case the best driver won the championship, the most regular, the fastest, in other words the best one despite his handicap and pay attention that each race was long 90 mins with further 30 mins of qualify time having a 2 hours event each race. I never have seen an amateur driving a Lotus or an Eagle win more than only 1 or 2 races at max and absolutely not the whole GPFun championship and last but not least...Fun is to be intended as Fun to close compete with others, not sailing alone in the ocean like Sir Francis Chichester. Cars are not all equals and drivers are not too. Making divisions is only a further fragmentation of the community leading to have races with no more than 10 drivers when things go right. Actually the GPL community is slowly dying because there are simulators games modern with graphic more advanced that are a call for people.I think you can manage things encouraging drivers to have a motivation to persist in their skill enhancements but, securely, this will not happens if a driver finishes a race lapped 3 or 4 times.
If a driver is better skilled than you his state will not change also if he will use a slower car but...you could at least finish the race nearer him and...if he will make a mistake, you could also have your chance to win.

Edit:
To complete the scenery and just to have an idea of what happens in GPFun, we have 5 or 6 car classes and each class is composed by 3 cars (i.e. class A: Cooper; BRM; Honda. class B: BRM; Honda; Brabham. class C: Honda, Brabham, Ferrari. class D: Brabham, Ferrari, Eagle. class E: Ferrari, Eagle, Lotus. Each car in a class, has a proper percentage of success of being chosen). In each car class there is a car considered a bonus(faster low percentage of success of being chosen), a normal and a malus(slower with high percentage of success of being chosen) car. When the reference time has been decided, each driver will choose a car class and a program randomly will assign him a car taken from a list of  the 3 that compose this class. The driver begins his test with the car assigned and if he is far from the reference time, he CAN request to try another car extraction from a faster class or, if he is below the reference time, he HAVE to request to choose another car from a slower car class. In any case a driver can choose the car class not directly the car because each car is randomly assigned. If a driver is faster than the reference time, also with the slowest car, the reference time is established by his lap time subtracting a few tenths of a second. The last thing is, we have a Low reference lap time and a High reference lap time (usually 1.0 or 1.5 secs above) thus a car assignment is considered good when the best combined lap time of a driver is in this range of lap times.
Like has already happened, someone has tried to cheat adding considerably fuel to the qualify car and keeping the reference lap time high enough to avoid the other guys would have used faster cars. In race, coming low on fuel, such a car have got advantages, having lap times in race faster than in qualify. Those people were banned from the championship.

I hope I was clear enough.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 01:09:40 AM +0000 by clouds » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 10:21:57 AM +0000 »

That won't work here, because not everyone practices or not everyone enters the server at the start of practice, nor are times in Qualifying always actual flying laps on low fuel. Some people want to just turn up and drive, some only practice with race fuel load and so on.
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« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 01:14:17 PM +0000 »

And some of us try race load and quick laps and find that the mistakes manage to make them both the same Wink

I agree with Phil though. If I win I want it to be because I did the best job. Amazingly I have actually won one scratch race and that felt awesome. If I had won because the other guy had to start from the pit lane it wouldn't have felt so good.
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« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2012, 06:53:03 PM +0000 »

I hope I was clear enough.
Yes you were, thank you for taking the time to explain.  Obviously a lot of time and effort has gone into organizing the GPFun races and I'm sure it resulted in some very exciting battles.  I wasn't trying to criticize the GPFun system I was only trying to point out that it differs from the system Clive is using and in what it is trying to achieve. 

If you take out the random element, then the nearest system we have to the GPFun system would be chassis allocation.  When doing chassis allocation, the moderators put in a lot of effort into trying to place drivers in cars that will result in evenly matched races.  They use their judgment and knowledge of the driver's abilities in order to do that.  I suggest the GPFun approach does the same thing but with a methodology rather than relying on the moderator's assessment of driver ability.

So in UKGPL terms it is like saying do we want to use Pit Stops or Chassis Allocation for the GTs.  Which system produces the better races is another question Wink.
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