P&G 3 now out

[goldtop]

With the amount of drivers regularly racing on the GC public server, the "Statistics" tab now provides good data for matching up cars. Could take a lot of the leg work out of putting series together.

http://78.46.95.57:8081/status/GCPnGV3PUB

[Paul968]

I hate to be the dissenting voice here, but to me it is rather a disappointment  I have fond memories of the original PnG, both here and with MARA, so I was looking forward to the new version. Trouble is, the cars now feel rather inert to me. Part of this I think is that I'm used to iR physics which always feel much more alive than GTR2, but I'm sure it is also because some of the character has gone. The iROC used to be a bit of a handful but enjoyable because of that, but now it just feels like any other car. You can't use the weight like you could in the old version (or at least, I can't) and you can do almost what you want on the way into a corner and it won't bite you - not even a nibble. I'm not a 911 driver in the real world, but I'd like to know Andy Purdie's view on whether this is realistic for a racing 911? The 250 special also feels rather numb, when the old one was an exciting slidey experience as I remember it.

I honestly really wanted to like this, but I can't I'm afraid  Hope you all have fun though 

[FullMetalGasket]

You need to tweek the settings on the IROC Paul - the default setup they give us is very boring as you say. I've stiffened up the rear of mine and got the old suicide tank I love back. It's also about 2 seconds a lap faster at Mid Ohio than the default setup if I'm remembering correctly 
Try the 2.8 RS and you might become a convert. It's pure bliss at the Ring 

On the Mid Ohio note - I've done all my back to back testing here on the chicaned layout; using 20laps fuel and softest available tires (Not all cars would manage 20laps on their softest tires mind ) and must have a good 30 cars now including nearly/all the 70's class stuff and a good collection of 60's touring cars
If it so pleases the mods I can make my times available so you can get your calculators out

[Mark J]

I haven't tried the iroc yet (shock horror!) but as FMG says, try the 2.8rs, it's great (and I do use my old and light 911 on track with sticky r rubber if thats worth anything for comparison ).

I have found all the default setups safe and easy to use straight off, so I expect it was a mod team decision to provide neutral setups for all cars to prevent all the 'this car is crap' posts they might have got! So it's upto us to make them wild and fast 

Ps andy can't get enough of the 3.0 rsr WB from what I can see of him over on the GC server 

[Paul968]

Don't worry, I changed the setup before I drove it to make the rear as stiff as possible, but even then, lift off oversteer was largely absent. I'll give the 2.8 a try though (I did try the 3.0rsr and this wasn't as I remember it either).

[Mark J]

IMO the irocs were far too edgy and unstable in 2.1 so if they have neutralised them a tad then that would be more realistic. They should be difficult to drive on the absolute edge but not trying to 360 spin at every opportunity or not handle kerbs.
Re the 3.0 WB, I was lucky enough to get taken around spa in one for 5 laps last October by the Dutch historics racing champion! It was on fat slicks and had tons of grip and oomph! It also felt very planted on track. A bucket list boyhood dream got ticked that day for sure! 

[SpecialKS]

IMO the irocs were far too edgy and unstable in 2.1 so if they have neutralised them a tad then that would be more realistic. They should be difficult to drive on the absolute edge but not trying to 360 spin at every opportunity or not handle kerbs.
Re the 3.0 WB, I was lucky enough to get taken around spa in one for 5 laps last October by the Dutch historics racing champion! It was on fat slicks and had tons of grip and oomph! It also felt very planted on track. A bucket list boyhood dream got ticked that day for sure! 

Lucky guy !!! 

[purdie]

I honestly really wanted to like this, but I can't I'm afraid   Hope you all have fun though  

Shame mate  

I find the car pretty accurate but have not driven anything this old before or on cross-plys. It turns in better with some trail braking, as it should, and more importantly has the main characteristic of that nice state of drift mid corner where you can steer the car just on the throttle. As for lift-off oversteer, I found it doesn't go that far, rather just straightens up the car. Helpful if you find yourself understeering off the black stuff!

As for the rest of the cars, I like the (euro) CSL and found the IMSA CSL just to be all domineering. It has the power AND the wider tracking to take on the RSR so I am not sure how a league would be setup to get it all balanced, but from looking over the IMSA results of the period the 911's seem to hold their own?! and didn't compete much against each other in Europe.

[Mark J]

Lucky guy !!! 

This was the beastie. Thats me getting in it and then the big wide grin 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12031968@N04/8178609358/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12031968@N04/8178578477/

I tried the IROC out this morning before i went to work (as you do!) on the Adelaide circuit. I do see what you mean about the lift off oversteer but i guess thats because its got the diffs set at 80% fixed? In handling it felt more like my own later 3.2 carrera than perhaps an early model (this is mine http://www.flickr.com/photos/12031968@N04/8178609898/ weighing in at a sprightly 1070kg) but when you watch the IROC in the replays it does move about quite nicely through the corners and has that 911 feel about it.

This is how maybe Paul is expecting to see the IROC handling? but its a narrow body 60's 911 so far more nimble on its boots  (Superb footage this!)  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_1KP24T-A

but here is an onboard of an IROC and although you can see some lift off oversteer in the apex, its not that pronounced.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJd25cTBY6o&feature=relmfu

or this view of an IROC in action from a chasing Cayman S  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjCu10uasPg
again, very planted car 

HTH

[Paul968]

That car is being driven properly though Mark - powered through the corners. If you lift off hard mid corner in a 911 it gets interesting very quickly, and I can't see how one of these cars would act any differently. I went back and had another go in the IROC, and yes, with a very extreme setup (max springs and arbs at back, min at front, soft dampers at front, hard at back) I can get it to tuck in with a big lift, but this seems wrong to me. The car should naturally want to do this when lifting off so that you are forced to drive the car properly, not just like any other car.

The 2.8 and 3.0 give you more options on the setup but still need massively more rear spring than on the front to work as I would expect.

Andy - can you imagine yourself halfway through the Craners in your 964 racer and then lifting off hard (and surviving)? 

[Mark J]

i think the nose is trying to tuck in when you lift  its just not as pronounced as on the 2.8RS or the 2.5?ST thats also in the mod, and i still think thats down to the fixed diffs in the fixed IROC setup.

I only did a few laps in it this morning but the T1/T2 corners at Adelaide 88 were definitely taken quicker when using some lift off oversteer to get my nose turned in, as well as a bit of trailbraking. I didnt try lifting off at any fast mid apex's as my brain tells me automatically it will want to spin!

I havent driven any of the cars enough yet to fully see whats what with them.

[Paul968]

I didnt try lifting off at any fast mid apex's as my brain tells me automatically it will want to spin!

Try it and you'll see what I mean.

[purdie]

Andy - can you imagine yourself halfway through the Craners in your 964 racer and then lifting off hard (and surviving)? 

lol good point but i do half-lift to get the nose tucked in! I think I only ever it flat once and that was in the 962 and I almost didn't get it stopped for the Old Hairpin!! Never again!

[purdie]

Great footage MJ, is that the same car and guy you went round with? He can drive!

[Paul968]

lol good point but i do half-lift to get the nose tucked in!

Precisely - that is what I want it to do, but in this I have to a) make the setup very extreme and b) be completely ham-fisted in the way I drive to get the car to react. (and if that isn't a setup for someone to knock my driving skills I don't know what is!  )