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  • S23F2 Hockenheim: November 09, 2012
November 09, 2012, 09:36:39 PM +0000 - Hockenheim (1965-2001) - UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Formula 2 Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
JonnyO
 Team Coyote
McLaren M4A GPL F2 1 2:00.870
126.191mph
1 40:26.716
125.707mph
20 2:00.486
126.594mph
Goodyear  
Phil Thornton
 Antipasti Racing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 3 +0.639
125.528mph
2 +19.573
124.701mph
20 2:00.821
126.243mph
Firestone  
dave curtis
 Black Night Racing
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 6 +1.902
124.237mph
3 +20.814
124.638mph
20 2:00.476
126.604mph
Firestone  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 4 +0.969
125.188mph
4 +21.187
124.619mph
20 2:00.535
126.542mph
Firestone  
Billy Nobrakes
 Black Night Racing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 7 +2.358
123.777mph
5 +1:01.913
122.580mph
20 2:01.579
125.456mph
Firestone  
Johnny.P
 
Lola T100 (BMW) GPL F2 5 +1.377
124.770mph
6 +1:02.086
122.571mph
20 2:01.066
125.987mph
Dunlop  
francesco
 Antipasti Racing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 8 +2.867
123.268mph
7 +1L
118.575mph
19 2:04.422
122.589mph
Firestone  
BadBlood
 HikiWazaRacing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 9 +3.328
122.810mph
8 +16L
112.785mph
4 2:05.435
121.599mph
Disco
Firestone  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Matra MS7 GPL F2 2 +0.539
125.631mph
9 +18L
120.897mph
2 2:03.032
123.974mph
Disco
Dunlop  
UKGPL 3
 
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 10 10 DNS ---
---
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

Good clean race - no incidents.

November 09, 2012, 09:37:22 PM +0000 - Hockenheim (1965-2001) - UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Formula 2 Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Al Heller
 Clark-Hill Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 3 +0.398
127.063mph
1 40:23.592
125.831mph
20 1:59.751
127.332mph
Dunlop  
G Jonsson
 Black Night Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 1 1:59.607
127.485mph
2 +0.427
125.809mph
20 1:59.827
127.251mph
Dunlop  
EvilClive
 HikiWazaRacing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 6 +1.213
126.206mph
3 +7.925
125.421mph
20 1:58.926
128.215mph
Firestone  
natan5
 NVRacing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 5 +1.086
126.338mph
4 +28.165
124.385mph
20 2:00.944
126.076mph
Firestone  
Hristo Itchov
 HikiWazaRacing
Ferrari 166 GPL F2 4 +0.645
126.802mph
5 +55.077
123.035mph
20 1:59.735
127.349mph
Firestone  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Protos 16 (FVA) GPL F2 2 +0.136
127.341mph
6 +7L
124.727mph
13 1:59.985
127.084mph
Disco
Firestone  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 7 7 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  

Moderator's Report

No incidents in the Lap 1 red zone.


Server replay time: 0h04m51s

Lap 2, final corner into the pit straight. Natan is slightly ahead, Hristo takes an outside line for the pass. He achieves minor overlap at the point of contact. Hristo is in his blind spot throughout the turn & Natan appears to take a fairly normal line exiting the corner. Contested side by side impact ~ racing incident.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Formula 2 Trophy - Hockenheim - Nov 9  (Read 11728 times)
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2012, 01:59:06 PM +0000 »

As long as they keep making driveable areas past the white lines, the temptation to use those is too much, especially when the line taken by going over them feels a lot more natural. Since it's not like it takes any extra skill to do the same as everyone else (and it's much harder to try and keep within a line you can't see until you're close to it), I don't see it as a problem at all.
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2012, 05:00:03 PM +0000 »

20.2 of the F1 Driving Regulations:

"Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."

GPL may be a game but it IS a simulation of F1. The rules and regulations tend to reflect that. Within the context of our game, it is not an issue if you leave the defined track but it does put you into a rejoin situation so make sure you don't interfere with anyone.

Sense of humour failure. Maybe. That is how the rules are interpreted though.




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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2012, 05:21:51 PM +0000 »

20.2 of the F1 Driving Regulations:

"Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."

GPL may be a game but it IS a simulation of F1. The rules and regulations tend to reflect that. Within the context of our game, it is not an issue if you leave the defined track but it does put you into a rejoin situation so make sure you don't interfere with anyone.

Sense of humour failure. Maybe. That is how the rules are interpreted though.






I can't remember how many times someone has quoted this already, lol, so no need to do it again. I'm telling you that if everyone agrees to use part of the track outside the white lines, it's perfectly fine. Rules are not always there to be obeyed blindly, but to serve as a guideline. We need flexible rules, not rules set in stone. If the majority choose to go beyond a white line somewhere and you insist on not doing so, it's your own fault and nobody else's. Why not just go outside the line as well, especially if (as I said) it's much easier than trying to stick to a line you can't even see. This is particularly true on corner exits or entries. I wonder if you even read my post...

To me cutting is when you cut the inside of a corner to gain an advantage, but even then there are exceptions, such as when you have more than 1 white line, like in Mexico.
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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2012, 06:25:06 PM +0000 »

Agree with Hristo.  I was involved in a dispute last season, after choosing to go outside the white lines, to steer clear of a hazardous driver.  My path was then actively blocked, and I was considered guilty for not keeping to the grass. Roll Eyes 
 
So, now the threat is, we might soon be found guilty of racing on the track, but in places where the lines say we're naughty?  Arbitrary rules of the road, don't always make sense at the track.  I would suggest we keep to sensible racing rules, which don't detract from our racing. Cool
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« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2012, 10:29:25 AM +0000 »

If you choose to leave the race track, you can do so but you are voluntarily putting yourself in a Rejoin situation.

It may be easier to drive that way and the rules will be applied in as pragmatic a way as possible but you don't get the choice to ignore the definition of the track. It would be much quicker to cut certain corners. If the majority of drivers agreed to do it, that would not make it acceptable.

Cutting a corner is cutting a corner whether or not you gain an advantage. If you do gain an advantage you risk being penalised.

And yes, I did read your post.

@Maddog: Martin, there is no "threat" - I am just clarifying the rules.

Incidentally, as a rule is defined as "An authoratative regulation" it cannot, by definition, be flexible. The flexibility comes in the application of the rules, which is a subtle, but important difference.
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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2012, 11:11:59 AM +0000 »

Well said Paul  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2012, 01:04:22 PM +0000 »

It's very easy to say "the rule says so" and just close your eyes, but don't you realize rules are never perfect and do not cover all possible situations? It's much more difficult to be flexible and look at each situation as its own separate instance, rather than blindly apply rules to each and every one. So in my eyes you're just choosing the easy way and not looking at things beyond what the rules say. Rules which by the way were made up by people, not imposed on them from above.

I'm not really sure if you are aware, but drivers here and in other leagues have been "cutting" corners all the time, in various locations on various tracks, and nobody ever got penalized. It's not like we started racing yesterday, so I find it rather odd that you try and preach about cutting. Most of us have enough experience with this thing to know what seems plausible and what not. In our eyes it looks more like you suddenly try to impose your own interpretation on what's allowed, after a decade or more of doing it our way. What exactly stops you from, let's say, go beyond the white line on the exit of the penultimate corner at Hockenheim? Is it not just your own refusal to do so, rather than feeling obliged to obey rules? It's not like it takes more skill or anything like that, anyone can do it, and it actually feels way more natural than sticking to an imaginary line.

Oh and one more thing - I'm pretty sure nobody cared about white lines in the 60s, with the nature of the tracks back then. It's not modern F1, tracks are not so well defined, ideal lines are not so rigid, the grip is lower and it is up to the driver to find the shortest route around. Even in modern F1 there are constantly exceptions at some tracks, particularly with flat kerbs, and nobody gets penalized. As I said, I agree on cutting when it's to gain an advantage such as at a chicane or completely going beyond the apex repeatedly, but apart from that, it's just about each driver trying to maximize his own performance. It's what makes driving a creative experience, an art, rather than a routine exercise. Nobody ever started racing because they loved to and wanted to obey such rules LOL.

Just so it's not just talk, watch this Mexico lap of old or just download any Mexico WR lap, and observe the car's line vs. the white line. Considering WRs are valid and the majority of people accept such driving lines to be valid, I find it rather odd that you try to impose some different interpretation here, just because "the rule says so" :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEw_QvsnJFE
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 01:28:45 PM +0000 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2012, 01:48:22 PM +0000 »

I just wanted to verify Hristos Hockenheim theory and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJceYPAOQhU&feature=relmfu

Jochen Rindt does very clean laps without "leaving" the track in the corners, only into T1 he cuts a little.

To me it seems the last 4-5 corners after the Sachskurve are more banked than we have them in GPL.

This was my second F1 race I saw live, the first was at Nurby 1968.
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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2012, 02:57:25 PM +0000 »

I'm not really sure if you are aware, but drivers here and in other leagues have been "cutting" corners all the time, in various locations on various tracks, and nobody ever got penalized.
I am well aware of it. But your assertion that no driver was ever penalized for it is not true. c.f. Adelaide Novices S21 here.

It's much more difficult to be flexible and look at each situation as its own separate instance, rather than blindly apply rules to each and every one.
Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why the modding takes so long?

Just so it's not just talk, watch this Mexico lap of old
I would be quite happy with this lap - there are no incidents.

However, although you assume that nobody reads your posts fully, you either do not read mine properly or misconstrue them purposefully.

I was attempting to clarify the rules, and how they are applied, for all of you. I have emphatically said that you can place the car where you will on or off the race track but that if you do, you risk getting penalized if there is an incident once you rejoin the track. WR laps are just a red herring as they are done solo, so a Rejoin never arises.

I don't think I can be any clearer and within this thread that will be my final post.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 03:14:04 PM +0000 by BadBlood » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2012, 04:05:23 PM +0000 »

I get what you're saying, but in that case would you say the car on the inside has the right to squeeze the car which has gone beyond the white line, because you assume the car on the outside is actually off-track? I see this kind of rule would lead to a lot more incidents, since knowing this, drivers on the inside would intentionally close doors/squeeze those who have gone beyond the white line, instead of leaving enough room.

@Axel - if they had ideally clean and uniform surface in reality like we do in GPL, drivers would have used a lot more road than they did. It's always about exploring the limits. Also, it comes down to how tracks are made for GPL as well, because if someone chooses to place a white line somewhere which contradicts with the natural racing line, I don't see how following that white line on purpose would make any sense. Let's use common sense instead. It's easier, safer and most of the time, natural.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:09:42 PM +0000 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2012, 04:13:18 PM +0000 »

It's not well advertised, but testing has been done in the past, to determine the abilities of public road users.  And apparently, 98% of us can judge from experience, the safe speed to drive at.  We have road sense.  I believe many of our nations traffic laws, were written to help those 2%, and as a source of income from the remaining 98%. Undecided

I would hope we are without that 2% at Ukgpl, and that our rules and refinements, are not oriented towards them.  The revenue is less rewarding. Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2012, 04:21:47 PM +0000 »

I get what you're saying, but in that case would you say the car on the inside has the right to squeeze the car which has gone beyond the white line, because you assume the car on the outside is actually off-track? I see this kind of rule would lead to a lot more incidents, since knowing this, drivers on the inside would intentionally close doors/squeeze those who have gone beyond the white line, instead of leaving enough room.

For the car on the inside to be able to squeeze the car outside the line, it would have to have very significant overlap. Since the purpose of going beyond the line is to carry speed this could not arise unless you were attempting an overtake by going outside the line. If the car on the inside deviates from his line and contact is made they would get penalised. If they hold their line they have 'right of way' but it would be an extraordinary situation. The car on the outside would also have to be all four wheels off to be rejoining. Leave any part of the car on the line and you can't get squeezed.

Nonetheless I take the point but I am pretty confident we would be able to sort the sheep from the goats...
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2012, 07:54:40 PM +0000 »

This was my second F1 race I saw live, the first was at Nurby 1968.

Nurby 68 !!!
Did you see anything with the heavy rain ? I think it was one of the more beautiful win of J. Stewart.
One year later, it was a fantastic win of J. Ickx against ...J. Stewart !
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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2012, 08:30:57 PM +0000 »


Nurby 68 !!!
Did you see anything with the heavy rain ?

No!
This was a strange experience, we were somewhere in the woods with lots of mud, seeing the cars 7 times for one corner...  Roll Eyes
I was used to see all the action going in the Hockenheim stadium  Grin
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2012, 09:18:09 PM +0000 »

Excluded from Enna race but I have failed the entrance of the pit not the pit-stop!In  time I have payed much more than a normal pitstop.
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