UKPnG Season 8 Sports Car Series - Monza '88 - Jan 10th 2013

[phspok]

Errrr. "NOvice level" ooops, <cough> that could have been me (Matt ducks the hurled rocks)
I was experimenting with damage levels to see how I could optionally reduce the daft damage sensitivity
and forgot to set it back to "SImulation"

Deepest appologies.  

p.s All server admins restart all the practice servers after their event finish, we always stop
the other series servers before starting our own events, then restart after.
People forget, but it is rare.

[Mark J]

Why do you think the damage level is daft? Seems alright to me. If you front end into a barrier in a vintage race car its invariably race over!  In praccy I've had numerous visits to the armco whilst pushing the limits resulting in glancing blows at all angles and none resulted in a dead engine, whilst some gave varying suspension damage, as is correct.
If you go nose in, expect to dnf ! And rightly so...this isn't gtl you know

[phspok]

My experience is not quite the same. I have had glancing blows that would have at worst bent a real wing
give me 0% . Also fairly light head on into barriers that killed the engine or
bent the suspension as if I had gone in at high speed.

I agree that the damage needs to be "realistic", but sitting in a chair watching a 2D screen with
no gforce on me bum or the car moving under me is less realistic, and makes it harder to
judge speed and grip, so I think the damage model should be a bit on the kind side, whereas
here it seems to be on the over harsh side. This is not arcade racing this is a simulation
it just feels to be more unkind than it should be to me, and several people have made similar
comments. If I could slightly reduce the damage level then I would.

[Clive Loynes]

Why do you think the damage level is daft? Seems alright to me. If you front end into a barrier in a vintage race car its invariably race over!  In praccy I've had numerous visits to the armco whilst pushing the limits resulting in glancing blows at all angles and none resulted in a dead engine, whilst some gave varying suspension damage, as is correct.
If you go nose in, expect to dnf ! And rightly so...this isn't gtl you know

I agree.

These so called sims that provide cars with the resiliance of a battle tank do not encourage the right approach and are a bit too arcade-like in my book!

I think PnG v3 is spot on.

[Wiltshire Tony]

Don't you dare critisice P&G  , with it's true to life physics model 

[phspok]

I would just like to make a point here guys if I may.
Last race there were a few instances of people unintentionally tapping the guy in front
causing him to go off, though there was no suggestion of bad driving at any time that I saw.

However, it is the etiquette here that if you push someone off you wait for them
even if it might be "their fault" and however frustrating it might be - even I have found myself behind
slower cars on several occasions and have tapped them when they braked early/got wobbly/got lost  
and have had to sit in frustration watching the field go past as I waited for them to get going again.

What comes around goes around guys, someone might have to wait for you at a future race.

Lets keep it simple.
Thanks
Matt.

[Clive Loynes]

Don't you dare critisice P&G  , with it's true to life physics model 

LOL

GTL is ok for the kiddies.

[Mark J]

Re the race contact.....hmm, at the risk of getting abuse, i disagree that you should pull over and wait for the other guy to rejoin the track for minor contact unless it was a blatantly stupid move that caused it, ie divebomb into a corner or side swiping someone who is already mid apex ahead of you. If someone ahead catches you out by suddenly sticking the anchors on 10m before the expected braking zone or hitting the brakes mid apex because they are running wide, spinning etc, thats their error not yours (excluding vastly different car characteristics where you should be watching/expecting the other guy to brake earlier than you need to). It seems daft to ruin your own race for minor indiscretions and it should be that you continue on and expect a slapped wrist/punishment by the stewards afterwards if deemed necessary (and by all means apologise profusely to the victim). Its racing after all, not 'after you sir' !
Etiquette should be used sensibly, if you know you did something stupid, then wait, but if a totally innocent brush or one of you came out worst when you both duked it out through a corner whilst fighting then i would say carry on. (as long as you didnt bully someone off!).
Thats my personal take on it and i would consider myself a very fair driver/person.    We dont need people stopping all over the place as it also robs others of a good fight.

Copy/paste all that into the rules  

[Wiltshire Tony]

You don't have to pull over or stop. The rules state that you may take a voluntary drive thru within three laps after the incident.

Minor contact lol. I think the definition of that depends if you are the victim or perpetrator.

[phspok]

I completely agree in principle Mark, in practice though, I, or anyone else does not want to be drawn into
long winded moderation involving several admins about who was at fault or how much driver 1
is guilty and how much driver 2 contributed. It is in these series relatively rare that incidents get
reported partly because our regular drivers know the rule, and drive to avoid it.

I have other things to do with my evenings than wade through replays and have to form
common opinion with others with PMs etc.

Incidents happen very rarely here, but If members feel something was not as it should be
then they should make an incident report. I would personally like to minimise them is all.

We have agreed that series admins will not be the person dealing with any incidents
for their own events to take out any personal involvement, this does mean that we have to
involve others who also have better things to do.

The rule is simple (intentionally) If you shove someone off you wait. (Ok, or take a drive through)
(Obviously if someone goes off and shoots back across the track into your path and you hit them
that is not the same thing as tapping him up the rear while racing.)

As I said what goes around comes around.
It may be unfair this time, but your turn will come.

[Hotkeys]

This is not arcade racing this is a simulation it just feels to be more unkind than it should be to me, and several people have made similar
comments. If I could slightly reduce the damage level then I would.

I agree Matt! If you tap someone from behind IRL ( or the other way around) it doesn't nescesarily mean, that the suspension or the steering of the car is ruined.
Have a look at some of the DTM races .......... they have contact incidents in almost every race.

Stig

[Legzy]

I've spent a few hours on this tonight, but I can't get to grips with any of the cars. Which is funny, because at last weeks race I could have taken any of them with no worries

The Porka feels like I'm driving on a knife edge & I'm only going at about 80% I'm sure, so not really an option if I want to complete the race
The GT40 was just a mystery to me .
I couldn't find a Vette labeled "Grand Sport"
The only one left was the Pantera that I can drive OK till the brakes start going mental after a couple of laps (yes I've opened the vents & reduced braking from 100% to 80%).

So I can't help but feel this is going to result in a lot of frustration & an early bath

[phspok]

I haven't done race distances in any of the cars. The GT40 MK2 in PG3 is IMHO
worse than the PG2 one. It might be better if they had connected the brake pipes.
It requires a lot of patience to keep it under control, is very easy to go too fast
in it and go off at every turn.

I haven't actually done any laps in the 906 here yet, I tried it somewhere and it seemed
quite drivable to me. (I think Tudor did most of the testing for this one)

I have not been aware of any brake issue with the Panty, perhaps I haven't driven it hard enough
but it seemed a slightly slower but easier drive to me than the others

There are a few Vette Grandsports, some have a bigger engine, and IMHO are potentially
race winners if someone can tame one.

If the vette grandsports are not showing in the cars list on line it's because we don't
have enough groups in the list, I will check.

From NG forums:

1960's FIA Group 6:

Chevrolet Corvette GrandSport (427ci Roadster)
Ford GT40 MkII
Porsche 906
Porsche 906E
Porsche 906 LangHeck
Porsche 906/8

I have added more cars to the practice server, but the Gr6 O2L were already there  

[Clive Loynes]

I have found the GT40 and Vette to be monsters and as Matt has said, the GT40 has no brakes.  I think that braking for the Mulsanne hairpin would commense somewhere near Calais!

That said I have wrestled both of them down to a 2:01 dead but a whole race could be a challenge, especially if someone else wanted a bit of the track that I was already committed to!

[Mark J]

So I can't help but feel this is going to result in a lot of frustration & an early bath

Sounds like your normal race night 

the 906-8 took a lot of setup tweaking and a lot of laps to get it right (for me). Stiffer setup seems to work better for the P&G3 cars (as it should be) and generally the tyres often have too much air in them so your not getting full tyre contact.

As Matt said, i also had no trouble with the Pantera and braking, and thought it the easiest of the group to race quickly and consistent with.

The GT40 seems too big and powerful even for Monza!    I would need a lot of practise laps to feel comfortable over a race distance in it, but i hope we see a good driver using it well. They were epic in that xmas Le Mans enduro we did once. Impressed Clive got it down to 2:01 as thats all ive managed in the 906-8.
Didnt like the Vette as much as rest of group so spent no time with it.