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  • P8GT Hungaroring: March 21, 2013
March 21, 2013, 08:46:26 PM +0000 - Hungaroring (2003-) - UKPnG Season 8 Grand Touring Championship
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
johnw
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Porsche 911 ST 2.5 (#72069) P&G 70s Gr4 O2L 3 +0.710
79.431mph
1 41:30.150
77.957mph
22 1:51.770
78.946mph
Dunlop  
Clive Loynes
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Ford Capri 2600 RS (#72007) P&G 70s Gr2 O2L 2 +0.661
79.466mph
2 +3.125
77.859mph
22 1:51.961
78.812mph
Goodyear  
Manteos
 Virtual Drivers Alliance
Ford Escort RS (#72030) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 4 +1.097
79.155mph
3 +16.367
77.448mph
22 1:51.604
79.064mph
Dunlop  
goldtop
 Kerb Crawlers
Alfa Romeo Giulia 1750 GTAm (#70004) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 8 +3.649
77.384mph
4 +1:01.136
76.089mph
22 1:54.071
77.354mph
Firestone  
Alex vV
 Gentlemen Drivers Club
Ford Escort RS (#72024) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 11 +5.292
76.284mph
5 +1:28.621
75.278mph
22 1:55.044
76.700mph
Dunlop  
Animal Ed
 
Porsche 911 ST 2.5 (#72069) P&G 70s Gr4 O2L 10 +4.871
76.563mph
6 +1:30.340
75.228mph
22 1:55.239
76.570mph
Dunlop  
Jarda Zacek
 
Ford Capri 2600 RS (#72003) P&G 70s Gr2 O2L 6 +2.079
78.464mph
7 +1:30.629
75.219mph
22 1:55.596
76.333mph
Dunlop  
frex
 Kerb Crawlers
Porsche 911 ST 2.5 (#72025) P&G 70s Gr4 O2L 13 +10.385
73.067mph
8 +1:31.516
75.193mph
22 1:53.130
77.997mph
Dunlop  
Hotkeys
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Alfa Romeo Giulia 2000 GTAm (#71040) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 9 +1:36.244
75.056mph
22 1:54.275
77.216mph
Firestone  
seniordan
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Alfa Romeo Giulia 2000 GTAm (#71041) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 9 +4.280
76.958mph
10 +1L
74.158mph
21 1:55.534
76.374mph
Firestone  
NPP
 Team Oldie Racing
Ford Escort RS (#72024) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 5 +1.110
79.146mph
11 +9L 13 1:51.668
79.018mph
unknown
Dunlop  
Nik
 
Porsche 911 ST 2.5 (#72079) P&G 70s Gr4 O2L 7 +2.682
78.045mph
12 13 1:54.020
77.388mph
unknown
Dunlop  
massimogt italy
 
Alfa Romeo Giulia 2000 GTAm (#72003) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 12 +8.028
74.522mph
13 +13L 9 2:03.038
71.716mph
suspension
Firestone  
Jamera
 Kerb Crawlers
Alfa Romeo Giulia 2000 GTAm (#72003) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 14 +10.757
72.843mph
14 +19L 3 2:01.943
72.360mph
unknown
Firestone  
Geoffers
 Kerb Crawlers
Ford Escort RS (#72024) P&G 70s Gr2 U2L 1 1:50.378
79.942mph
Excluded +0L
78.179mph
22 1:51.116
79.411mph
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Geoffers admits to multiple track cutting. Replay verifies this. No alternative but to impose the maximum penalty hence a DQ is awarded.

  • Geofferspenalty — Multiple track cutting — excluded

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
GTR2
P&G 70s Gr2 U2L
1:50.378
79.942mph
Geoffers
Qualifying
Ford Escort RSMarch 21, 2013, 08:46:26 PM +0000
P8GT
GTR2
P&G 70s Gr2 U2L
1:51.116
79.411mph
Geoffers
Race
Ford Escort RSMarch 21, 2013, 08:46:26 PM +0000
P8GT
GTR2
P&G 70s Gr2 O2L
1:51.039
79.466mph
Clive Loynes
Qualifying
Ford Capri 2600 RSMarch 21, 2013, 08:46:26 PM +0000
P8GT
GTR2
P&G 70s Gr2 O2L
1:51.961
78.812mph
Clive Loynes
Race
Ford Capri 2600 RSMarch 21, 2013, 08:46:26 PM +0000
P8GT
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Author Topic: UKPnG Season 8 Grand Touring Championship - Hungaroring - Mar 21  (Read 14189 times)
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Hotkeys
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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2013, 07:30:34 AM +0000 »

Many good duels at the rear of the grid. Unfortunately, I picked the wrong tyres ..... Undecided , and my laptimes dropped from slow to deadslow. Don't think I've ever been that low on rubbber in a race Grin

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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2013, 08:57:59 AM +0000 »

Having just watched the replay, I have to hold my hand up & say that I was regularly getting all 4 wheels off the tarmac at the chicane & at the tight ess-bend in the last section, so should be disqualified.  Sad

Likewise, I think I was doing that a lot more often than I thought I was in the race.
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phspok
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« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2013, 09:20:50 AM +0000 »

I will have a scan at the replay this weekend. No point crying over spilt milk.

If people are not playing by the rules, then I will have to see if I can pick tracks with harsh cuts
but then people will complain about that. I could choose tracks with walls  Evil but I know some
people who will be noisy about street tracks....
Actually some of the upcoming tracks have solid looking objects (that are not)

My view is that we should be driving as you would in a real world event, you wouldn't be putting
4 wheels inside the kerbs in an F1 or Touring car without expecting to receive a drive through or something.
Always a problem with virtual racing, we just have to rely on people's sense of fair play most of
the time. Some of our SROUK versions of tracks have tighter cuts, I might try to be more selective
but it's yet another parameter that I have to include, as well as choose something that looks good/
is suitable for the car type/isn't Cadwell  Wink /is not new/supports 28 cars/is by a designer we can use (Gianni said we are
free to use his tracks BTW, so we can use Beranovac Yeahhh  Grin/ )
and now tracks that have big vicious kerbs and no inside run off.  So, we will be running at a very
select and small series of tracks then.

Sounds like people were not aware of how much they sinned, I doubt anyone on here would deliberately cheat
it's hard to penalise people for doing something that "seemed reasonable at the time" ah well, onward ever onward  angel
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:24:35 AM +0000 by phspok » Logged

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NPP
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« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2013, 10:26:58 AM +0000 »

This is a problem in real racing as well as in sims - I remember a Barcelona DTM event a few years ago when a kink that was delimited only by plastic poles was progressively straightened as the poles were flattened one by one.

As to yesterday's racing, from the cockpit (I haven't watched replays) I didn't see people do things that I would regard as against the spirit of the rules.

At Monza, F1 clarified that it was ok to have four wheels off at Ascari. Maybe we could have similar clarifications made pre-race - at Hungaroring, one could say that, at the two chicanes, you should not stray more than a car width from the track, this would still prevent blatant cutting.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:31:31 AM +0000 by NPP » Logged

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phspok
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« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2013, 11:53:26 AM +0000 »

Ascari was to do with people going wide, which though suspect is not usually a big deal here
We are more concerned with cutting inside of kerbs/straight lining chicanes

Our rules deal with it:

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3349.msg65152#msg65152

Personally I am not so strict about it. I just ask people to keep two wheels on the track most of the time.
Anyone can misjudge or get forced off line by another car, there is no lightning bolt from the sky
if you sin. I was reported once and lost places becuase I was not bothering with the painted kerbs
at Dijon, I treated them as track, but someone got upset. If I have to limit track choices to ones
where kerb cutting is not a valid option, then these series will become less interesting.
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frex
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« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2013, 12:37:22 PM +0000 »

Cracking race, many laps running close behind Jarda and also Alex, others too at times. Got a bit sideways near the end and lost 4 places in one corner as we were all running so close - great fun.

Pretty sure my laps were clean at the chicane, though may have run wide once or twice at T11. Only saw (mostly) clean laps from everyone else, certainly no blatant attempts to gain an advantage. Tbh i think the run to the next corner is so short i don't think much advantage could be gained anyway. Congrats podium, cya next race.
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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2013, 01:01:45 PM +0000 »


Hmm..

Before anyone falls on their sword, I suggest that we decide which rules we are running.  I'm sure that I remember the two wheels on the tarmac being spelled out in our rules but they now seem to have been written to say "don't tread on the grass"!  The width of curb will have some effect on the end result of such rulings.  Roll Eyes

Has this been changed for the nobs in iRacing?  It is completely different to what we have been taking as the gospel of St SROUK.
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Manteos
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« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2013, 01:23:20 PM +0000 »

I joined the server with 7 mins to the end of qualif session, but I didn't have time to practice with the Escort. This car surely need some setup tweaks, but the only thing I could do was to change the brake bias, and stiffen the rear springs before the start. Unfortunately during my quali lap, I forgot to check the tyre wear and temperatures, and evenmore I started the race with soft tyres. It was absolutely a wrong choice.

Despite my 4th position on the grid, I splashed off like a bullet, gaining immediately the lead. My poor knowledge of the Escort on this track, didn't let me to escape from the followers, cause I did practically the same mistakes for at least 3 laps. Then I put a wheel on the grass of the right corner before the chicane, and my car spun in the escape.
I tried to push a bit harder to fill again the gap with the leaders, but lap after lap the tyre wear grew exponentially, and the left-front tyre was hot enough to cook a steak in less than one min. I realised to have lost the train when my pace started to get really worse than the first laps. After mid-race, I was hooked by NPP, that passed me after a couple of laps, cause I was unable to open the gas, and my car kept sliding for the rest of the race. Unfortunately for NPP, he crashed just in front of me (no harms done mate, I just had to go 4 or 5 seconds on the gravel to avoid you), so my race finished desolately alone on the track.

Talking about the white lines, I watched the server replay, and I guess to have been really clean at the chicane in my action, going just slightly external to the white lines only a couple of times at the chicane. At the third sector corner, I went out of the white line for a good 75% of my lap, but I didn't feel comfortable when braking in that corner and my left front tyre had no grip at all cause of the high temperature.
However, every version of Hungaroring in which I raced, had this extra-space outside the kerb in that right corner of the third sector, like the 2 Rivazza of Imola, and it's quite natural fall into temptation of exploiting that extra space.
I guess it's not so rare to see even in Formula 1 or GT races that drivers put 2 wheels on the synthetic grass and 2 on kerbs (so with all the wheels out from the white line) especially when they're accelerating out of a corner, and nobody charged them of "cheating". I hardly remember S&G penalties for such manouvres in some recent times. It's just a matter of rules. I understand and I agree that chicanes need a better concentration to keep the wheels inside the white line, without cutting it, but at the same time I understand and I agreed with Matt, as he stated after Imola race: "There are kerbs with kerbs after them, the green kerbs were put there to be driven on by the circuit designer, so they are going to get used at times." In this case, I think that nobody used the kerbs for cheating, but cause it is a natural consequence of that kind of corner with that second kerb after the first kerb that is an unresistable temptation.

It's just a matter of common sense, cause if the rule is interpreted so tightly, myself, John and Geoffers should be DQ by the race, and I would consider it a dangerous precedent IMO.

It's up to you as ever, but this kind of trouble could be easily solved, with a simple rule like: some corners got a kerb after a kerb, and in that corner is allowed to keep 2 corners on the painted kerb and 2 corners on the "added" kerb". Obviously this rule should not affect the chicanes, but only the exit of a corner. It's just a proposal  Wink

Grats to Geoffers, John and Clive for the podium! Cu Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2013, 02:17:54 PM +0000 »

glad my system freeze didn't majorly affect you, Manteos. You probably did the wrong thing stiffening the rear - I found that softening the rear and stiffening the front a little worked much better.

What tyres are you guys using? Softs were obviously the wrong choice, but am I too conservative going for hard tyres every time?
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Mark J
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« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2013, 02:28:15 PM +0000 »

i never understand this 'interpreting of cutting', it should be as the real world in all cases...two wheels on the black stuff at all times, doesnt matter how much astro turf/kerb/grass the outer wheels are doing as long as the two inside wheels are touching the track (not on the kerb!). If your 4 wheels off every time, its outside the track limits and would get a warning from a track official. The occasional in-discretion is understandable as your racing to the limits and cant get a tricky corner spot on lap after lap.
We all know and love racing enough to know whats a cut and what isnt, so no point feigning naievity/interpretation  angel

Sounds like i missed a good 'un  Sad  good to see John carry the porsche banner up front again against the quicker cars  Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2013, 03:43:24 PM +0000 »

"We all know and love racing enough to know whats a cut and what isnt, so no point feigning naievity/interpretation"

So, I'm sure that now you can explain to us why I found you "cutted" (in the Manteos way) at Imola the track 30 times (without including the few centimeters cut) before the first half of the race Mark  angel

In Italy we say: "Predicare bene e razzolare male", that the site word reference.com translate to me in this way: "Practice what you preach".

I'm uploading your first 30 cuts on image shack, so when the upload will finish, do you want me to post it on this thread?

I've just told you that in Italy we use a different rules to avoid this drawbacks, cause we consider the kerb like the "black stuff", and despite I struggled to conform my driving to your rules, I wasn't succesfull enough, and the mission was not completely accomplished I have to say (like Geoffers and John by what I saw in the replay). But we have a strict rule in our championships, cause if you go outside the kerbs more than 3 times in a race, you will receive a penalty for every cut after the first 3 of about 2 points. I'm not advocaticang our rules are better than yours, but I just want that you comprehend that this rules was respected in these last 2 races only by a few number of drivers, and that one of these was surely Clive, but not you Mark.

You know that I've no trouble saying what I think, so this time I had to do it.
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"The second principle: Take every gain without showing remorse about missed profits, because an eel may escape sooner than you think."
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« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2013, 05:25:40 PM +0000 »

The occasional in-discretion is understandable as your racing to the limits and cant get a tricky corner spot on lap after lap.

My defence is in that statement  Wink First off, i dont need to justify myself to you or anyone, but I 'never' intentionally cut any corner in racing (and i would swear on a bible on that!) If i have cut in a race its usually because i am driving at 'my' limit to keep up or ahead of you fast guys and/or slightly out of control trying to control a lairy old car  Tongue  Thats very different to someone who intentionally cuts a corner to gain an advantage (though probably doesnt look it on a replay!). Good example of the latter was the GC race the other night where some guys were deliberately driving through the tyre wall on the chicane apex!! probably gaining as much as half a second each lap as they didnt have to brake and downshift. Angry
No doubt i had some laps at Imola (like 99% of the field) where i ran wide of the track/kerbs (especially that uphill S-bend as i remember being too far to the left a few times on exit) but again it wasnt from any intent to gain time, more my lack of skills/precision...plus i am using one hand to steer and a manual shifter!

Im not bollocking anyone or accusing anyone of cutting (i wasnt even at this recent race!), was just wondering why the 'interpretation' has to keep coming up  Huh
All the aim here is, is to stop people deliberately cutting to gain time, so at least 'try' and keep two wheels on the blackstuff Smiley  otherwise you will end up with the same dodgy driving standards i have witnessed elsewhere. Everyone here is pretty fair and honest imo.  euro
I actually like the sound of your cut rules, but does mean more admin for someone here. Undecided
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« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2013, 06:25:53 PM +0000 »

Not goin` into this debate but I found both sides right. IMHO main problem is when track layout doesn`t fit hand in hand with the rules and we have spots on track encouraging to brake or bend (interprete differently) the rules like on that kink 2 corners before finish line. In this race I`ve seen cutting but rarely to gain time but we were slow enough not to see what you, faster guys, are talking about  Grin - just kidding if smiley is not enough!
Why don`t we identify and mark the spots before event and say where is acceptable, where not.

Oh! My race.
Hard tires just didn`t work for the first 10 laps and I was last for few laps but in last quarter I gain 3 positions thanks to them. Two mistakes, one in last corner when rear tires was not warm, enough and second when I clip grass under braking and went wide in sand(barely) trap ... 
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Mark J
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« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2013, 08:23:00 PM +0000 »

m'eh, its just another storm in a teacup   Kiss Not quite sure why everyone gets so paranoid about it, none of us here has accused any particular driver of any cutting, we just mention it now and then to make people think before an event rather than allow it to get out of hand and maybe upset a driver during a race who loses out to it. It was mentioned before the Imola race because in past events (not P&G) people have taken liberties with the fast chicanes/corners, albeit with the knowledge its very easy to get out of line in these old cars.
Just from reading the after race posts for this event, some drivers have felt they needed to justify their cutting like they knew they were taking liberties, even without being accused of it!  Guilty conscience?   shifty so proves its worth clarifying on occasion. Smiley

lets get back to racing.....
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« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2013, 09:05:26 PM +0000 »


Unofficial LapChart

Wow, what a race! Flat out action for the entire 40 minutes of the race.
Partly helped by the nature of the track and my surplus of horsepower, we got a nice train going for the entire race with five cars battling it out for P6-P10.
Didn't have a single contact in the race so a big thanks to Ed, Frex, Zarda and Hotkeys for the hard but extremely fair fight  euro

Congrats to the podium.



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