UKPnG Season 8 Grand Touring Championship - Hungaroring - Mar 21

[Manteos]

Why don`t we identify and mark the spots before event and say where is acceptable, where not.

I think this would be the best option IMO.

Just to answer to Mark: "First off, i dont need to justify myself to you or anyone, but I 'never' intentionally cut any corner in racing (and i would swear on a bible on that!) If i have cut in a race its usually because i am driving at 'my' limit to keep up or ahead of you fast guys and/or slightly out of control trying to control a lairy old car"

"No doubt i had some laps at Imola (like 99% of the field) where i ran wide of the track/kerbs (especially that uphill S-bend as i remember being too far to the left a few times on exit) but again it wasnt from any intent to gain time, more my lack of skills/precision...plus i am using one hand to steer and a manual shifter! "

These 2 sentences for me sound like an un-needed justification Mark. Everyone drive at his limit during a race online, mainly cause we don't risk to die and cause everyone try to do his best to be as fast as he can trying to respect the rules. What does it mean that you drive with one hand and manual shifter? That you are allowed to do the same thing I've done changing the gears with the paddles? For me this is not a good reason and doesn't justify anything, cause there's no need to justifiy a normal behaviour of every driver that wants to exploit the track surface and its additions like it happened in Imola. If the additions are there, it's cause they're meant to be exploited in the minds of people that built the track. They're not mysterious objects put there to make the track more pleasing to your eyes.
In real life they solved this problem for the chicane putting higher kerbs or bumps inside the chicane (like in Monza at the "Prima variante, Variante della Roggia, and Variante Ascari"), but at the same time, they added some extra space (usually covered by the synthetic grass) in almost every track at the exit of a fast corner, and it's not rare to see drivers exploiting it (like the first and second corner of "Lesmo" and a lot of Tilke's damned modern tracks).
During my first year experience I used to race mainly in lobby, and it wasn't rare that a lot of drivers did a specific setup just to jump on the kerbs and bumps better especially at the "Prima Variante" and "Variante della roggia". That is what I consider "cheating" in terms of cuts. You can't put the car height at 8/9 cm on the front and 9/10 cm on the rear just to cut better a chicane, and this is what I consider an unfair behaviour.
The differnce between real life track and simracing track is that they can be modified to obtain the behaviour you pretend by the drivers during a race. Unfortunately to modify a Simracing track and what the game considers cut, you should modify the files of every track adding bumps here and there, or you can change the "geometry" of what the game should consider a track cut. These measures requires a lot of time to be implemented, so usually the simracing "marshals" leave to the drivers a bit more freedom in the interpretation of this rule.
If I watch to yesterday's race, I have to say that myself, Geoffers and John (I watched only their replay + Clive) didn't respect the white line rule in the strict sense compared to Clive, but I don't give them any responsibility for this behaviour. I'm just a bit disappointed cause for the second time Clive complained about this aspect, and he is racing on different rules compared with the leading drivers group of the last 2 races. This is not good, because it leads to arbitrariness in the behavior.
As Animal Ed stated in his previous post, wouldn't be easier to say in which points of the track is allowed to keep the internal tyres outside the white line? Obviously with the limit of 2 wheels on the kerbs, so the end of the kerbs in these limited cases will be considered the very limit of the track.
Evenmore you won't need any further marshall to control the other drivers behaviour, cause it's up to a driver that complains about the others breaking the rules to submit a complaint for track cutting. Nobody is asking to someone to watch all the race of every driver.
It tells you one that 2 years ago did a complaint against 15 drivers for deliberate cutting with all the four wheels outside the kerbs at the Eau Rouge, and discovered that the driver who cutted the Eau Rouge the greatest number of times was just a VDA driver
The point is that now seems that you have 2 different racing standards about the cuts. The strict one is that adopted by Clive and a bunch of other drivers, and the other is what the rest of us adopts, and as I said before, it leads only to arbitrariness. Just my 2 cents. Now, you decide, but please give us a clear rule without interpretations

I've always a clean conscience talking about this issue, and as ever I repeat that if you want to DQ me, it's not a matter if it will help to clarify this rule once and for all.
See you

[Clive Loynes]

LOL

Castle Combe should be interesting.

There is a white line 300mm from the edge of the tarmac and the curbs are narrow.  This means you can have two wheels on the tarmac, whichever edge you take, and two over the grass!

I'm currently practicing, in my usual manner, with at least part of one tyre tread inside the white line.

Would like to know soon if that's wrong.

[Geoffers]

(5) Please follow the SROUK guidelines for using kerbs etc. Please keep 2 wheels on the track surface (kerbs do not count as track surface)
Excessive cutting of corners will seen as cheating and the results may be altered to reflect this.

The above is quoted from post #1 of this thread. As you can see it clearly states that you should keep 2 wheels on the track surface & the kerbs do not count as track surface. Clearly Clive was respecting this (supplementary) rule & several of us were clearly not. But the SROUK guidelines here:  https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3349.msg65152#msg65152 say that you should refrain from putting wheels on the grass, sand & gravel & I am pretty sure that Manteos, John  & myself were driving within those rules. In my opinion we were not cheating but simply driving the track to its fullest extent, however this is still at odds with what Matt had clearly stated in red in post #1 & so according to that supplementary rule we were driving outside the rules.

I'm quite happy with any decision that is made regarding me driving outside the rules & in my opinion if Matt has gone to the trouble of highlighting something in the race posting we should obey that. This time I didn't!

[goldtop]

(5) Please follow the SROUK guidelines for using kerbs etc. Please keep 2 wheels on the track surface (kerbs do not count as track surface)
Excessive cutting of corners will seen as cheating and the results may be altered to reflect this.

The above is quoted from post #1 of this thread. As you can see it clearly states that you should keep 2 wheels on the track surface & the kerbs do not count as track surface. Clearly Clive was respecting this (supplementary) rule & several of us were clearly not. But the SROUK guidelines here:  https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3349.msg65152#msg65152 say that you should refrain from putting wheels on the grass, sand & gravel & I am pretty sure that Manteos, John  & myself were driving within those rules. In my opinion we were not cheating but simply driving the track to its fullest extent, however this is still at odds with what Matt had clearly stated in red in post #1 & so according to that supplementary rule we were driving outside the rules.

I'm quite happy with any decision that is made regarding me driving outside the rules & in my opinion if Matt has gone to the trouble of highlighting something in the race posting we should obey that. This time I didn't!

That's very interesting and something I hadn't realised before now. I always believed the "written in red rule" in the first post was simply drawing our attention to the relevant and specific rule of track cutting contained in our standard SROUK rules just to make sure that lazy types (like me ?) would be aware of them without having to read through them all. However, when things are written in red it does tend to draw ones attention.

I think there is a real need for clarification of our general rules and everyone should then be in no doubt of what is legal/illegal and exactly what the consequences are.

In RL there is a driver's meeting where stewards make all participants aware of local track rules so that no-one is left in doubt. Exit of Ascari is a good example of this where drivers are permitted to run out wide. I actually raised this query before our recent PnG race here, but didn't receive any reply to my post. I think if anything these "local" rules should be those written in red in the race post as they become apparent. If there is nothing specific noted by race time, then the general rules should apply to the letter.

Something as simple as "Running out wide as Ascari is fine" or at Hungaroring "Drivers are permitted to cut chicanes without penalty" would be clear enough.

[phspok]

Sigh..... I added the red rule because we were having non stop arguments about what was a "cut" and what was not.
I have absolutely no intention of trawling through every replay counting how many times each person gets 4 wheels
inside a kerb. If someone wants the job you are welcome to it. Seems this one will just not go away and we
will be still be wanting clarification for every track we run at, Well I will not be giving out track by track rules for
each and every event. "If" there is a particularly suspect part of a track, and I am aware (or made aware) of it, I will state in the
event page what we should do about it. Matteo's club use the kerb as part of the track, I don't really agree with that.
If we say that the kerb is part of the track then there will be another 1000 posts about whether the green part of
the kerb is "kerb" or not, and is the white line "track" or not ad nauseum.

Sorry to be a bit grumpy guys, but I am absolutely, completely, and utterly fed up with the constant "discussion" of what
is track or not. My suggestion for these series is that you should keep two wheels on the track most of the time
occasional accidental wanderings are not an issue. And the "track" is anything tarmac or up to the kerb.
If you choose to ignore my suggestion, and you are gaining time by excessive cutting then your victory will be shallow
just like the fastest driver always taking the fastest car (which anyone is free to do) but the fast guys tend not to
and self handicap.

Some tracks have kerbs that mean it is a natural driving line to get your outer two wheels on the kerb itself as per
Matteos' rules. the 1st chicane at Adelaide street is a bit like that. When we ran there almost everyone had
all 4 wheels up one of the kerbs at least some of the time (including me), in that example it was painfully unnatural to have to slow
to drive carefully around the kerbs, so we ignored that, and at Hungary it is hard to avoid sometimes getting outside
wheels up kerbs, <shrug> I am not going to drop 90% of the drivers from the results because they were doing something
that most other people were. I need a very very simple rule, it is too time consuming working out whether driver 1 or driver b,c,d,e or f
cut a kerb more than 3 times in a race, I just don't have the time to do that, however good an idea it might be.

My simple "Rule" is: Keep two wheels on the track surface on most laps.

Beyond any painted lines at the outside of the track count as track by default. (Such as at Monza)
unless stated otherwise in the main event post.

Now, if everyone would try to drive within those guidelines, my life will be simple.  

I really hate to use the incident report system, because someone/people (not me in this case) has to review the replay
and make a judgement, and if someone gets a judgment they don't like it can be an emotive subject.
If a particular person is getting what you consider to be an unfair advantage by unreasonable cutting
then do an incident report for it, stating in the report the time(s) in the replay that this occured.
Otherwise just drive sensibly, and keep two wheels on the track surface, so no one can accuse you.

Ok, on to the next event   and I will be there muhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhahahahaha  
 

[Clive Loynes]

The reason that we get constant discussion is down to the fact that people cut the track but no action is taken.


So I suppose that I have to enter an incident report listing all of the points in the race where the car in front of me took a short cut.  Why should I be the only one who is hacked off!

I feel sorry for John, who handicapped himself with a slow car and then found himself racing against faster cars who were, in his words or something like, extracting the urine at the chicanes.

I think that Tudor got it right when he suggested that people "should just flippin' stop it"! 

[johnw]

I feel sorry for John, who handicapped himself with a slow car and then found himself racing against faster cars who were, in his words or something like, extracting the urine at the chicanes.

Well, I think that needs a little clarification there Clive I didn't say that other people were 'extracting the urine', more that we'd have to be careful not to 'extract the urine' during the race. As it was, my competitive nature got the better of me (not that that's any excuse) and I ended up drifting over the line as much as some others when trying to chase down Geoffers

[phspok]

I will not be handing out penalties to anyone for Hungary.

Please will people to keep two wheels on the track at all times in all races unless stated in the race announcement

Not a problem if you spin/make a rare misjudgement/go off line because of other cars to avoid contact.

As stated I need to keep it simple. I am not going to get draconian for any one person who disagrees.
I am not absolutely, no way, nada, nein, going to watch every lap of every race to point the finger
at any sinners. MJ's posts are pretty well where I am at.

If someone finds a dodgy place at any up coming track, then shout up and I will give guidance as required.

I have enough to do here without being the flamin cut police as well.  

Yours Grumpily

EDIT: Perhaps I should clear up any misunderstanding. I will not be giving out penalties because I don't,
the moderators do. And I am intentionally not a moderator for my own series. Though I have volunteered to moderate
for others.

If I watch replays or see something on track that I find unreasonable then I might
put in an incident report for it. I will give my opinion, and the moderators can accept it or not.

The SROUK rules don't say you will lose a place for putting a wheel on the grass, just that you are "discouraged"
I put in the extra note as a guideline so everyone would know what was considered ok and what was not.
If people choose to ignore my request then they leave themselves open to the guy behind putting in a
report, and if the moderators agree, they might lose a place or worse.

If anyone feels that they lost places because others flaunted the rules, then test the system and put in
a report to the moderators. You might gain places, or you might not.

[Geoffers]

Ah, I finally did get excluded!

[phspok]

Ouch! 

[johnw]

Ah, I finally did get excluded!

Hold on, why didn't I get this as well?

[phspok]

I didn't know Geoffers had an incident report against him. Report yourself if you feel badly done to John.

[Geoffers]

Ah, I finally did get excluded!

Hold on, why didn't I get this as well?

Probably because you weren't reported to the moderator. Don't worry about it John, I transgressed & you probably only did the same trying to stay with me.

[Legzy]

Both drivers have owned up to doing the same thing.
Breaking the same rule should surely be treated the same (I.e. either both are punished or neither).

[Clive Loynes]

Both drivers have owned up to doing the same thing.
Breaking the same rule should surely be treated the same (I.e. either both are punished or neither).

Nothing happens in motor racing without a protest.

I submitted an incident report for the fist 12 minutes of the race and listed eleven instances where the car in front of me, Geoffers,  straightened out the circuit and gained advantage with all for wheels having left the track surface.  I had observed this in the race and did not need to trawl through the entire replay on the off chance of finding something!  I stopped at twelve minutes because I was bored and also because Geoffers had pulled away a tad and I couldn't see what he was up to from my car.

After a second week of watching some people effectively using a track that was a metre or so shorted than the one that I was on, not to mention straighter, I was appalled to learn that nothing was going to be done about it.

So I did something. 

Hopefully everyone will now have a couple of wheels on the track surface.  Especially if I am following them. 

Sorry Geoffers but I believe that the "two wheels on the tarmac" rule is of benefit to UKPnG.  However, I also believe that the rule either needs to be enforced or chucked out.