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  • S2467F2 Jarama: March 17, 2013
March 17, 2013, 09:36:18 PM +0000 - Jarama - UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Formula 2 Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Ronniepeterson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 4 +0.357
86.799mph
1 39:52.686
85.814mph
27 1:27.709
86.703mph
Goodyear  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Lola T100 (BMW) GPL F2 1 1:27.255
87.154mph
2 +0.736
85.787mph
27 1:26.958
87.452mph
Dunlop  
MagicArsouille
 
Lotus 48 GPL F2 2 +0.053
87.101mph
3 +15.055
85.277mph
27 1:27.012
87.398mph
Firestone  
Raoni Frizzo
 Team Coyote
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 3 +0.356
86.800mph
4 +19.597
85.117mph
27 1:27.950
86.466mph
Firestone  
DLogan
 
Cooper T84 GPL F2 5 +0.606
86.553mph
5 +37.845
84.478mph
27 1:27.494
86.916mph
Dunlop  
Doni Yourth
 Blue Moose Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 11 +2.297
84.919mph
6 +51.243
84.015mph
27 1:29.194
85.260mph
Goodyear  
kinghiro
 Clark-Hill Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 10 +1.741
85.449mph
7 +56.387
83.838mph
27 1:29.154
85.298mph
Goodyear  
Al Heller
 Clark-Hill Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 9 +1.634
85.552mph
8 +56.906
83.820mph
27 1:28.538
85.891mph
Goodyear  
Dean_0
 
Matra MS7 GPL F2 12 +2.800
84.445mph
9 +1L
82.436mph
26 1:29.692
84.786mph
Dunlop  
Phil Thornton
 Antipasti Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 14 +4.481
82.897mph
10 +3.865
82.303mph
26 1:30.687
83.856mph
Dunlop  
robert john
 
Cooper T84 GPL F2 16 11 +11.270
82.050mph
26 1:29.860
84.628mph
Dunlop  
Arf Arf Arf
 Team Baarf
Matra MS7 GPL F2 7 +1.130
86.040mph
12 +36.479
81.201mph
26 1:29.743
84.738mph
Dunlop  
natan5
 NVRacing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 8 +1.588
85.597mph
13 +8L
81.601mph
19 1:28.830
85.609mph
Disco
Goodyear  
uli
 
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 6 +0.782
86.380mph
14 +15L
82.967mph
12 1:28.364
86.061mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 13 +3.223
84.050mph
15 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Lotus 48 GPL F2 14 16 ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Server replay time: 0h00m58s

Red zone alomost clean - Dean Logan in the \"slow\" Cooper makes a fast start & makes minor contact with Ronnie\'s tail pipe on the exit of turn 1. Dean slides into the gravel but there is no real harm to Ronnie. - Racing Incident.

March 17, 2013, 09:37:37 PM +0000 - Jarama - UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Formula 2 Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
JonnyO
 Team Coyote
Lotus 41B GPL F2 1 1:28.290
86.178mph
1 40:39.886
84.198mph
27 1:28.812
85.672mph
Firestone  
blito
 Shadows
McLaren M4A GPL F2 2 +1.433
84.802mph
2 +28.679
83.220mph
27 1:29.442
85.068mph
Goodyear  
roguk
 Clark-Hill Racing
Cooper T84 GPL F2 3 +1.807
84.450mph
3 +1:00.650
82.156mph
27 1:30.524
84.051mph
Dunlop  
dave curtis
 Black Night Racing
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 7 +2.708
83.614mph
4 +1:10.606
81.830mph
27 1:31.318
83.321mph
Firestone  
ed76
 Team Coyote
Matra MS5 GPL F2 9 +3.199
83.165mph
5 +1L
80.847mph
26 1:32.518
82.240mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 6 +2.186
84.096mph
6 (+1) +1.390
80.801mph
26 1:29.578
84.939mph
Firestone  
Nigel Smith
 Blue Moose Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 4 +1.963
84.304mph
7 +21.529
80.142mph
26 1:31.023
83.591mph
Dunlop  
francesco
 
Matra MS5 GPL F2 10 +3.319
83.056mph
8 +41.115
79.511mph
26 1:32.190
82.532mph
Dunlop  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Matra MS7 GPL F2 12 +4.100
82.354mph
9 +50.214
79.222mph
26 1:31.996
82.707mph
Dunlop  
PaulV
 Blue Moose Racing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 13 +4.548
81.956mph
10 +54.859
79.074mph
26 1:31.761
82.918mph
Firestone  
tintin
 Clark-Hill Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 8 +3.101
83.254mph
11 +1:19.817
78.293mph
26 1:31.572
83.089mph
Dunlop  
Billy Nobrakes
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 11 +3.806
82.617mph
12 +1:24.071
78.162mph
26 1:33.011
81.804mph
Goodyear  
maddog
 Antipasti Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 5 +2.017
84.253mph
13 +15L
83.121mph
12 1:29.549
84.967mph
Disco
Goodyear  
philippe GIRARD
 Blue Moose Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 14 +17.405
71.987mph
14 +17L
69.918mph
10 1:41.300
75.110mph
Disco
Goodyear  
DLogan
 
Cooper T84 GPL F2 15 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
UKGPL 3
 
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 15 16 ---
---
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

Red zone is clean.


Server replay time: 0h02m00s

Rainier makes a pass on Fran in the hairpin. Fran\'s line was very wide which opens a gap. Rainier has almost 100% overlap but there is contact between Frans front & Rainer\'s rear. Fran spins into the armco.
Whilst Rainier had made a pass he clips the inside of the kerb & runs out to the right of the track Fran would have been unsighted until very late & is not to blame. Side-by-Side penalty for Rainier but it seems that by trying to keep a tight line the contact with the kerb forced him wider than expected. Reduced to a warning.


Server replay time: 0h02m49s

Rainier is having a bad day & runs into the back of Tin Tin.


Server replay time: 0h03m10s

Tin Tin takes a Shift R & moves off - keeping to the edge of the track. Phillipe checks his speed on the approach. Fran arrives & is surprised by Phillipe\'s lack of speed & runs in Tin Tin. Fran really should have he should have done the same as Phillipe & exercised more care when approaching an incident.


Server replay time: 0h03m10s

Tin Tin is forced to take a second Shift R which I will allow this as the consequence of the first incident.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Formula 2 Trophy - Jarama - Mar 17  (Read 22462 times)
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Billy Nobrakes
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« on: March 13, 2013, 11:09:21 PM +0000 »

THIS POST IS FOR THE LIGHT & HEAVY RACES

Round V of the Formula 2 Trophy will take place in Spain. The Circuito del Jarama is a 3.4km/ 2.11 mile  race course in Madrid, Spain which has hosted nine Formula One Spanish Grand Prix. The circuit was built by Alessandro Rocci in 1967.  It  has one proper straight and most of the course consists of tight, twisty corners so overtaking was extremely difficult. (Try & avoid being in the modrator’s office afterwards).  Jarama hosted its last Formula One race in 1981
The series will run on two separate grids ~ The Lights will run on T7 & the Heavys on UKGPL 3. Please ensure you join the correct race. The Driver list is shown below & the Championship Table can be found here F2 Trophy

Handicaps will apply – please observe this rule as a failure to take the correct car will result in an exclusion.
In the Lights Dean Logan – Group II (BT14, Ferrari or Cooper). Raoni & Tristan Group III – any of the Group II cars or either Lola or either Lotus.
In the Heavys – Rog UK – Group II, Rainier & Jonny O – Group III.  

A maximum of one reset is allowed per race & must be followed by a compulsory Stop & Go in the pit lane. If you Reset on the last lap a 30 second time penalty will be awarded.
Incidents should be reported in the usual way.
In line with other divisions the races will be subject to full moderation in the red zone which will be until the exit of Farina. The Moderator may chose to investigate any other incident, in addition to reported incidents & red zone incidents.

Please note that for UKGPL has introduced a system of penalties within each series for drivers accumulating yellow cards – see here
Penalty Points. Drivers incurring these penalties will receive a PM advising when a penalty has been applied & what race it should served.

LIGHT HEAVY
Arf Arf Badblood
Cookie Bernie
Evil Clive Billy Nobtrakes
Fulvio Bilto
Hristo Dave Curtis
King Hiro Geoff
Magic Arisoulle Giovanni
Natan Il Lupo
Phil Thornton Jonny O
Bartosz Nigel Smith
Raoni Frizzo Paul Villers
Ronnie Peterson Rainier
FMGBoggy
Skymole Francesco
Al Hellar Pierre D
Doni Yourth Vosblod
Dean LoganAdam Cooper
Dean 0 Ed76
Robert John Tin Tin
Du Fossa
RogUK

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL3 & T7
Race date = Sunday 17-03-2013
Time = 21:00 UK time (21:00 GMT)
Track = jarama
Race length = 27 Laps
Variant = 1967 Formula 2
Damage Model = Intermediate
Qualifying time = minimum of 30 minutes
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 10:59:27 PM +0000 by Cookie » Logged
DLogan
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2013, 11:54:51 PM +0000 »

...Dean Logan – Group II (BT14, Ferrari or Cooper)...

Seriously? I'm tempted to just skip this round.
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Billy Nobrakes
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2013, 11:15:40 AM +0000 »

Dean - as far as I know the Cooper only has a minor performance difference against other chassis. (BT14 & Ferrari are a different matter).
Jarama has lots of slow corners & will favour the handicapped cars - wait for Monza 10K.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 01:26:24 PM +0000 by Billy Nobrakes » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2013, 01:56:21 PM +0000 »

Dean - as far as I know the Cooper only has a minor performance difference against other chassis. (BT14 & Ferrari are a different matter).
Jarama has lots of slow corners & will favour the handicapped cars - wait for Monza 10K.

Exactly, apart from BT14 and Ferrari, all other cars are more or less evenly matched.
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2013, 05:00:09 PM +0000 »

...Dean Logan – Group II (BT14, Ferrari or Cooper)...

Seriously? I'm tempted to just skip this round.

Great track, in my opinion, and extra bouncy in these cars. It would be a shame to miss it whatever your driving Dean. Hope to see you.
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2013, 05:37:28 PM +0000 »

Dean - as far as I know the Cooper only has a minor performance difference against other chassis...

That "minor" difference had me qualifying last (nearly 1/2 second behind the next slowest car) at a VERY short and simple track like Watkins, and unable to do anything save try to latch onto someone's draft (which will be a complete non-factor at Jarama) to keep from getting lapped.

Did you notice that I'm qualifying an average 1.5 seconds off the pole, WITHOUT a handicap?

Did you notice that the 3 drivers behind me (who won't be after this race whatever car you allow me to drive) have qualified:
Raoni: pole, 2nd, 2nd
Tristan: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd
Hristo: pole, pole, pole?
where I've been: 8th, 4th (at a track I've obviously done a lot more practice at than most), 8th

Did you notice that the only reason I'm leading this is because I've bothered to show up for every round (and had the good fortune to not get discoed at Brands)?

Do you seriously think they need me to be handicapped to have a chance of beating me? Huh

Keep the handicap applied, and I won't be there, because it will NOT be fun, and that's the reason I do this.

edit: or I will show up in a non-handicap car (just to race) and WELCOME THE EXCLUSION.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:52:01 PM +0000 by DLogan » Logged
Billy Nobrakes
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2013, 10:39:06 PM +0000 »

Dean,
Sorry you feel that way - but the rules were set at the beginning of the season & everyone else seemed quite happy with the system.

I didn't notice you having any issues about driving in the Privateers where you are clearly much faster & more consistent than any other driver in that division.
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2013, 10:59:00 PM +0000 »

...My main problem is with this: "The top three drivers may, at the moderator's discretion, be limited to a slower car." It's too vague and subjective.

But we all agreed to it when we signed up to race in this series.

In the F2 Lights, I'm qualifying from 4th to 8th (a full second and half off your pace), keeping my nose clean, benefitting from other's misfortunes (discos, etc.) and somehow find myself leading the series (with a smaller margin than you started Mexico with). The series rules say the leaders "may" be assigned a slower car (wow, it's vague and subjective, too). It DOES NOT SAY "they may be assigned a slower car unless they're only leading due to other's misfortunes or mistakes". It DOES NOT SAY that whatever happened (or didn't) last season has an effect on this one. So I'm in a Cooper for Watkins, among drivers who I KNOW are faster than me? Yay, bring it on.

"Shut up and race." - Me, 2013
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 11:06:30 PM +0000 »

Dean,
Sorry you feel that way - but the rules were set at the beginning of the season & everyone else seemed quite happy with the system...

"...the leading three drivers in each division may be assigned a 'slower' car." I'd assumed that handicaps would be applied if anyone had built up a sizeable gap (now 11 points, less than the award difference from 1st to 3rd) in the points standings, and only in the interest of fostering close racing, as in "This season’s handicaps should not severely disadvantage the top three drivers, but give the pack a chance to compete." Raoni, Tristan, and Hristo are clearly much faster than I am in the F2s, a second or more clear of me on the grid (when they bother to show up). Your position that they need me to be handicapped to have a "chance to compete" is, quite frankly, laughable.

If I'm to be punished for 100% attendance, the solution is obvious.

Quote
...I didn't notice you having any issues about driving in the Privateers where you are clearly much faster & more consistent than any other driver in that division.

One pole from four races = "clearly much faster than any other driver"?  ROFL.

I've already stated my willingness to move to Works (for NEXT season), even though it's far from certain that I'll win the title in Privateers.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 11:08:11 PM +0000 by DLogan » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2013, 11:25:45 PM +0000 »

Valid points all around. Perhaps there is a solution ?  I don't know.

If the top 4 drivers discarded their worst two results so far ...Dean Logan would be in 4th  Peace

RJ
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2013, 12:29:54 AM +0000 »

I think the issue here is the rather fuzzy definition of the handicapping system this season. I'm not particularly comfortable with the division rules simply stating drivers "may be assigned a slower car" at a moderator's discretion - a loose definition like that is always going to prompt uncertainty & debate. I'd much prefer a clear, unambiguous & objective set of handicapping rules, like we used to have in Historics where the championship leader didn't get handicapped until he was "X" amount of points ahead in the championship. Also the same system applied to the 2nd & 3rd placed drivers, so if the championship battle was close the top 3 might all find themselves in handicap chassis.       

I don't think you can start fiddling around with the rules mid-season to suit individual circumstances though. In 66's/Historics I've never been on the pace of Hristo, Tris, and the other really fast guys, but I've spent the last 3 seasons almost entirely using the handicap chassis. My elevated position in the championship always owed more to consistency than outright speed, yet I was still allocated the Mclaren at high speed tracks like Spa... nobody ever suggested that we drop the handicap chassis for those races as it wasn't fair & frankly I wouldn't have felt it appropriate to do so, as it would have just felt too much like the championship was being artificially manipulated. OK you could argue that all handicap systems (& indeed points systems) are a form of artificial manipulation, but that's my point - if it's clearly defined at the start of the season & we all sign up to it, then I think that's the best we can hope for.   
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2013, 03:22:54 AM +0000 »

I thought we already discussed this. The arbitrary handicap based on subjective decisions by a division's moderator, I'm totally against that. Handicap based on a strict and predefined handicap system, I'm up for that. It has worked well season after season in Historics, as well as Masters while it existed. It gives everyone a better chance to compete in the championship. The key is to have enough group separation for the top 4 to 6 drivers, thus spreading the cars gradually, instead of having an abrupt gap in car performance for the top 2 vs. the rest.

Again, I see no logic that such a system was not applied to 65 or F2 divisions, but instead it was left to the moderator to decide, on rules that were never announced publicly. The fact that Axel finally agreed to change his approach in Pros goes to show he realizes the flaw in that approach. It really doesn't make sense to react to small points gaps and totally handicap someone all of a sudden. Here it is the same thing, but at least he seem to have the cars grouped, so Billy can do things a bit more systematically with ease.

I agree with Al it may not be best to change rules during a season, but if something is severely flawed, perhaps we should. In fact I don't think it would do much of a harm at the current moment. We could simply apply the system without Billy having to judge it by his own observation, but simply use the points standings. While I don't know the performance of all cars, let's assume the current groups are proper, so it would work like this:

Top 2 in the standings - Cooper (plus any other car close to it in performance?). If any of the top driver has 50 or more points lead over the 2nd placed driver, he has to use the much slower Ferrari or Brabham, but that would be the only case where those should be used. We saw clearly last season the performance of those 2 cars is too different to the rest, Cooper included.

3rd and 4th in the standings - a middle group of cars + the slower ones mentioned above ^.

The rest can use any car.

If it happens that a slower driver leads the championship and gets handicapped, that's the way the system is supposed to work, it's supposed to give drivers behind a chance to catch up. If the driver is slow and/or inconsistent, he simply won't stand up there for long and once he gets passed by the quicker drivers in terms of points, he will be able to get a fast car while they get handicapped in the slower ones. In the end it should be no surprise if the better (not necessarily faster) drivers finish higher up the standings, it won't be correct if it's any other way. Handicapping should be not used to make someone finish higher than someone else if he's not better than that driver.

And BTW, Dean, you can't really compare Watkins with a track like Jarama, regardless of how long the lap is. Watkins is a proper power track, while Jarama is much more of a driver's track and the Cooper, even if it doesn't have enough power (I assume that's the case), it wouldn't matter much on such a track. It's like saying that because BT7 is bad at Watkins, it won't do well at Jarama - it can do exceptionally well at Jarama.
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2013, 10:26:31 AM +0000 »

...If it happens that a slower driver leads the championship and gets handicapped, that's the way the system is supposed to work, it's supposed to give drivers behind a chance to catch up...

But I'm NOT leading (except through the artifice of the scoring system). As RJ points out above, once the two drop races are taken into account, I'm actually fourth.

In a hypothetical, if I somehow manage to find an extra second plus PER LAP for the remainder of the season, so I'm actually on pace with you, Raoni, and Tristan, and manage to gather the exact same amount of points over the remaining races, then when everyone's two worst results are neglected, I'm all of a sudden not winning anymore; I'm not even on the podium.

Do you really think I need to be handicapped in the interest of fairness?

Quote
...Handicapping should be not used to make someone finish higher than someone else if he's not better than that driver...

Then why are you so eager to see me handicapped (again), when you are, for all intents and purposes, ALREADY BEATING ME, and undeniably faster at every track we've visited so far, a situation that shows NO sign of changing?

Quote
...And BTW, Dean, you can't really compare Watkins with a track like Jarama, regardless of how long the lap is. Watkins is a proper power track...

Then the mods should have taken that into account before saddling me with that sad sack of shit at the Glen.

Looking at the bare stats for the Cooper (the least lame of the car choices I was offered), a 10hp deficit (215 vs. 225 for the other FVA-engined cars) led me to expect maybe a couple of tenths loss in outright pace. As it turned out, it put me to the very back of the grid, with no chance of advancement, leading to some choices that I'd otherwise not have made (going side by side into the Loop with Cookie [he ended up in the fence] and following a group much closer through Speed Trap than I normally would have done, a move which cost me both front wheels, a shift-r, and a stop and go).  If I'd known just how poor that car is at a track like Watkins, I'd have raised these points before that race. Forgive my lack of prescience.

Quote
...I agree with Al it may not be best to change rules during a season, but if something is severely flawed, perhaps we should...

I disagree. I'm not asking for mid-season rule changes. I'm just pointing out things that I believe the mods have not taken into proper consideration. That's the only flaw I see.

Well, that and someone who snags pole every time supporting the idea that a midfielder (that they're already beating) should be handicapped, but that's a different subject.
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2013, 11:27:45 AM +0000 »

hi    Smiley

heu !...well ...if I can give you my opinion about,.... I think the gap is just not enought between Dean and Raoni ( 11 pts ), and also with me ( 12 pts )...and I think also with Hristo (21 pts ......between first and fourth place ).....this is a ridiculous gap !.....the gap is just to small and handicaping one more then another is not fair, that's why , for me all those drivers must have the same chances to fight for the podium and so , all must choice in  Group III – any of the Group II cars or either Lola or either Lotus....    .....the gap is realy not significant.
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2013, 11:55:12 AM +0000 »

But I'm NOT leading (except through the artifice of the scoring system). As RJ points out above, once the two drop races are taken into account, I'm actually fourth.

In a hypothetical, if I somehow manage to find an extra second plus PER LAP for the remainder of the season, so I'm actually on pace with you, Raoni, and Tristan, and manage to gather the exact same amount of points over the remaining races, then when everyone's two worst results are neglected, I'm all of a sudden not winning anymore; I'm not even on the podium.

Do you really think I need to be handicapped in the interest of fairness?


You ARE leading in the championship standings. The 2 worst results aren't dropped until the end of the season, it happens every season and is the same for everyone. You can't predict what are the 2 worst results going to be for everyone by the end of the season, can you?

The handicap system which I'm talking about is not based on raw pace, it's based on championship standings. It's much better than subjectively deciding who should get what car, don't you think? It gives a chance for the slower drivers to be on par with quicker drivers, if we consider all other factors equal (such as consistency). The fact that you are leading by points and the others are not means you've been more consistent than the rest, so effectively you've done better than the rest. A championship is not won by raw pace, it's a combination of qualities.

If, let's say, myself, Tristan, Raoni, etc., happen to actually win and score regularly, we will be constantly handicapped in the slower car while you would be able to use a faster car and managed to mix it in the fight, all throughout the season. There is a tactical element involved, but with proper grouping of chassis and lack of under/over-handicapping (i.e. the much slower Ferrari/Brabham), the handicap system which I'm discussing does what is intended - bringing closer together each driver, but not taking away so much from those who are better as to rob them from what they deserve. And by better I don't mean necessarily faster. Just ask Al Heller how he has won Historics last season and how he is doing strong this season again.

And no, it's not about whether I think you should be handicapped or not, I just don't think handicaps should be handed out by someone's own view on things, but rather by employing a system that is not influenced by subjective interference. That way it's fair to everyone, because everyone gets the exact same treatment.


Then why are you so eager to see me handicapped (again), when you are, for all intents and purposes, ALREADY BEATING ME, and undeniably faster at every track we've visited so far, a situation that shows NO sign of changing?


Again, I'm not eager to see you handicapped, I don't care who is handicapped. The point I'm trying to make is we should rely on a handicap system that has proven its advantages over all other handicap systems we have used in the past 8-10 years of UKGPL. It's not about you or me, but about fairness.

Quote
...And BTW, Dean, you can't really compare Watkins with a track like Jarama, regardless of how long the lap is. Watkins is a proper power track...

Then the mods should have taken that into account before saddling me with that sad sack of shit at the Glen.


Well that's one of the improvements that can be made to the handicap system, to include a circuit factor, because it's a big difference whether you race at Spa or Monaco, though it also depends on the mod. With some mods, most cars have similar engine power, but different chassis weight. With other mods it's the opposite. And then there are mods which are a combination of the two (like the original GPL 67s). I agree it makes no sense to handicap someone in a very slow car, straightline speed-wise, on a track like Monza, or in a very heavy car on a track like Monaco (though the latter is less of a problem really).


Looking at the bare stats for the Cooper (the least lame of the car choices I was offered), a 10hp deficit (215 vs. 225 for the other FVA-engined cars) led me to expect maybe a couple of tenths loss in outright pace. As it turned out, it put me to the very back of the grid, with no chance of advancement, leading to some choices that I'd otherwise not have made (going side by side into the Loop with Cookie [he ended up in the fence] and following a group much closer through Speed Trap than I normally would have done, a move which cost me both front wheels, a shift-r, and a stop and go).  If I'd known just how poor that car is at a track like Watkins, I'd have raised these points before that race. Forgive my lack of prescience.

With the great slipstream effect of F2s, it only takes a proper setup (tire pressures and gear ratios in particular) to negate all power disadvantages of a slower car. You can check last season when I was handicapped in the slowest of cars and still managed to keep up with the leading group for the sole reason of setting up the car for slipstream, then taking advantage of their misfortunes.


I disagree. I'm not asking for mid-season rule changes. I'm just pointing out things that I believe the mods have not taken into proper consideration. That's the only flaw I see.

Well, that and someone who snags pole every time supporting the idea that a midfielder (that they're already beating) should be handicapped, but that's a different subject.

You just don't get what I'm saying. I'm not asking for a rule change to benefit myself from or to ruin your chances, I'm asking that we don't rely on arbitrary subjective decision on who gets what car for each race. That's too unstable and unfair in my view. It influences the championship in a very inconsistent manner and you never know what you'll get before each race. Unless we employ a system that runs on its own without outside interference, we would be better off not using any handicap at all.

If it's necessary, make the system more advanced, by introducing more group of cars with closer performances, it doesn't matter really, as long as we don't rely on subjective choice of handicap that relies on nothing else but one person's view on the situation. The latter will always see things partially, without taking into account some factors that led to points standings, to lap times, to gaps at the end of races and so on, and draw incomplete conclusions, then handicap people based on all that. I just can't accept such approach and I've already said it in the Pros division.

I'm not trying to blame Billy or any moderator, but it would be arrogant to think one can see things so clearly and be so objective, as to handicap people dynamically after each race without making it unfair towards someone. It just can't happen, that's why we use systems.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 12:03:00 PM +0000 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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