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  • S2467F2 Jarama: March 17, 2013
March 17, 2013, 09:36:18 PM +0000 - Jarama - UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Formula 2 Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Ronniepeterson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 4 +0.357
86.799mph
1 39:52.686
85.814mph
27 1:27.709
86.703mph
Goodyear  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Lola T100 (BMW) GPL F2 1 1:27.255
87.154mph
2 +0.736
85.787mph
27 1:26.958
87.452mph
Dunlop  
MagicArsouille
 
Lotus 48 GPL F2 2 +0.053
87.101mph
3 +15.055
85.277mph
27 1:27.012
87.398mph
Firestone  
Raoni Frizzo
 Team Coyote
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 3 +0.356
86.800mph
4 +19.597
85.117mph
27 1:27.950
86.466mph
Firestone  
DLogan
 
Cooper T84 GPL F2 5 +0.606
86.553mph
5 +37.845
84.478mph
27 1:27.494
86.916mph
Dunlop  
Doni Yourth
 Blue Moose Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 11 +2.297
84.919mph
6 +51.243
84.015mph
27 1:29.194
85.260mph
Goodyear  
kinghiro
 Clark-Hill Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 10 +1.741
85.449mph
7 +56.387
83.838mph
27 1:29.154
85.298mph
Goodyear  
Al Heller
 Clark-Hill Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 9 +1.634
85.552mph
8 +56.906
83.820mph
27 1:28.538
85.891mph
Goodyear  
Dean_0
 
Matra MS7 GPL F2 12 +2.800
84.445mph
9 +1L
82.436mph
26 1:29.692
84.786mph
Dunlop  
Phil Thornton
 Antipasti Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 14 +4.481
82.897mph
10 +3.865
82.303mph
26 1:30.687
83.856mph
Dunlop  
robert john
 
Cooper T84 GPL F2 16 11 +11.270
82.050mph
26 1:29.860
84.628mph
Dunlop  
Arf Arf Arf
 Team Baarf
Matra MS7 GPL F2 7 +1.130
86.040mph
12 +36.479
81.201mph
26 1:29.743
84.738mph
Dunlop  
natan5
 NVRacing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 8 +1.588
85.597mph
13 +8L
81.601mph
19 1:28.830
85.609mph
Disco
Goodyear  
uli
 
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 6 +0.782
86.380mph
14 +15L
82.967mph
12 1:28.364
86.061mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 13 +3.223
84.050mph
15 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Lotus 48 GPL F2 14 16 ---
---
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

Server replay time: 0h00m58s

Red zone alomost clean - Dean Logan in the \"slow\" Cooper makes a fast start & makes minor contact with Ronnie\'s tail pipe on the exit of turn 1. Dean slides into the gravel but there is no real harm to Ronnie. - Racing Incident.

March 17, 2013, 09:37:37 PM +0000 - Jarama - UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Formula 2 Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
JonnyO
 Team Coyote
Lotus 41B GPL F2 1 1:28.290
86.178mph
1 40:39.886
84.198mph
27 1:28.812
85.672mph
Firestone  
blito
 Shadows
McLaren M4A GPL F2 2 +1.433
84.802mph
2 +28.679
83.220mph
27 1:29.442
85.068mph
Goodyear  
roguk
 Clark-Hill Racing
Cooper T84 GPL F2 3 +1.807
84.450mph
3 +1:00.650
82.156mph
27 1:30.524
84.051mph
Dunlop  
dave curtis
 Black Night Racing
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 7 +2.708
83.614mph
4 +1:10.606
81.830mph
27 1:31.318
83.321mph
Firestone  
ed76
 Team Coyote
Matra MS5 GPL F2 9 +3.199
83.165mph
5 +1L
80.847mph
26 1:32.518
82.240mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 6 +2.186
84.096mph
6 (+1) +1.390
80.801mph
26 1:29.578
84.939mph
Firestone  
Nigel Smith
 Blue Moose Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 4 +1.963
84.304mph
7 +21.529
80.142mph
26 1:31.023
83.591mph
Dunlop  
francesco
 
Matra MS5 GPL F2 10 +3.319
83.056mph
8 +41.115
79.511mph
26 1:32.190
82.532mph
Dunlop  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Matra MS7 GPL F2 12 +4.100
82.354mph
9 +50.214
79.222mph
26 1:31.996
82.707mph
Dunlop  
PaulV
 Blue Moose Racing
Lotus 48 GPL F2 13 +4.548
81.956mph
10 +54.859
79.074mph
26 1:31.761
82.918mph
Firestone  
tintin
 Clark-Hill Racing
Matra MS7 GPL F2 8 +3.101
83.254mph
11 +1:19.817
78.293mph
26 1:31.572
83.089mph
Dunlop  
Billy Nobrakes
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT23 GPL F2 11 +3.806
82.617mph
12 +1:24.071
78.162mph
26 1:33.011
81.804mph
Goodyear  
maddog
 Antipasti Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 5 +2.017
84.253mph
13 +15L
83.121mph
12 1:29.549
84.967mph
Disco
Goodyear  
philippe GIRARD
 Blue Moose Racing
McLaren M4A GPL F2 14 +17.405
71.987mph
14 +17L
69.918mph
10 1:41.300
75.110mph
Disco
Goodyear  
DLogan
 
Cooper T84 GPL F2 15 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
UKGPL 3
 
Lola T100 (FVA) GPL F2 15 16 ---
---
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

Red zone is clean.


Server replay time: 0h02m00s

Rainier makes a pass on Fran in the hairpin. Fran\'s line was very wide which opens a gap. Rainier has almost 100% overlap but there is contact between Frans front & Rainer\'s rear. Fran spins into the armco.
Whilst Rainier had made a pass he clips the inside of the kerb & runs out to the right of the track Fran would have been unsighted until very late & is not to blame. Side-by-Side penalty for Rainier but it seems that by trying to keep a tight line the contact with the kerb forced him wider than expected. Reduced to a warning.


Server replay time: 0h02m49s

Rainier is having a bad day & runs into the back of Tin Tin.


Server replay time: 0h03m10s

Tin Tin takes a Shift R & moves off - keeping to the edge of the track. Phillipe checks his speed on the approach. Fran arrives & is surprised by Phillipe\'s lack of speed & runs in Tin Tin. Fran really should have he should have done the same as Phillipe & exercised more care when approaching an incident.


Server replay time: 0h03m10s

Tin Tin is forced to take a second Shift R which I will allow this as the consequence of the first incident.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9
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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Formula 2 Trophy - Jarama - Mar 17  (Read 29701 times)
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DLogan
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2013, 12:34:17 PM +0000 »

...You can't predict what are the 2 worst results going to be for everyone by the end of the season, can you?...

As a matter of fact, YES, I can (one of them, at least). Looking in my crystal ball, I'm going to predict that you drop a no-show, 0 point result. Same goes for Raoni and Tristan.

If only I could have such foresight for the Lotto numbers.

Quote
...The handicap system which I'm talking about is not based on raw pace, it's based on championship standings...

As opposed to this handicap system, which is based on... championship standings.

Quote
...The fact that you are leading by points and the others are not means you've been more consistent than the rest, so effectively you've done better than the rest...

No, it means that I've bothered to show up for every race. If I'd skipped one, I wouldn't even be threatened with the Cooper.

Quote
...If, let's say, myself, Tristan, Raoni, etc., happen to actually win and score regularly...

Now what are the odds of that happening?

Quote
...There is a tactical element involved...

Yeah, it's called "skip one the first three races so you don't get handicapped early in the season". Guess I am learning something.

Quote
...Well that's one of the improvements that can be made to the handicap system, to include a circuit factor, because it's a big difference whether you race at Spa or Monaco, though it also depends on the mod...

Which is why the present system has allowance for moderator's discretion. My only argument is that I feel there are things they are not taking into account.

Quote
...You can check last season when I was handicapped in the slowest of cars and still managed to keep up with the leading group for the sole reason of setting up the car for slipstream...

The fact that you're one of the fastest drivers in all of GPL, let alone this league, had nothing to do with it?

Quote
...Unless we employ a system that runs on its own without outside interference...

That has special conditions depending on which mod we're using, and which track we're at. Who decides these? It's still someone's discretion, whether it's locked in before the season begins, or is done on the fly, allowing for circumstances as they arise.

Quote
...we would be better off not using any handicap at all...

My preference, but not what we all agreed to when we signed up, so moot.

Quote
...If it's necessary, make the system more advanced, by introducing more group of cars with closer performances...

Which all depends on what track we're at, and depends on how each factor affects/is affected by each individual's driving style. Needless complication for no benefit that I can see.

Quote
...it doesn't matter really, as long as we don't rely on subjective choice of handicap that relies on nothing by one person's view on the situation...

So we should rely on someone's subjective view of the situation that's set in stone before the season begins, and allows NO flexibility?

Quote
...The latter will always see things partially, without taking into account some factors that led to points standings, to lap times, to gaps at the end of races and so on, and draw incomplete conclusions, then handicap people based on all that...

Where they'll be able to see all of these factors, and account for them, BEFORE THE SEASON BEGINS???

Quote
... I just can't accept such approach and I've already said it in the Pros division.

If you "just can't accept" it, why are you still here? As you're still here, that means you've accepted it.
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robert john
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2013, 03:37:09 PM +0000 »

I've yet to see a perfect handicap system. Someone always draws the short straw it seems. In this situation a driver with 4 finishes is compared with others with only 3 and the numbers don't add up. Perhaps drop one result in first half of season and one in second half ?

I can see one way to fair things up but that would rely on self imposed handicapping. Top 4 in points take the Coop and see who is the man.  Wink

Peace

RJ
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2013, 04:33:04 PM +0000 »

As a matter of fact, YES, I can (one of them, at least). Looking in my crystal ball, I'm going to predict that you drop a no-show, 0 point result. Same goes for Raoni and Tristan.

If only I could have such foresight for the Lotto numbers.

You REALLY believe skipping 2 races is a good approach? Hello, what about if you retire from an additional race, you happen to have 3 zeroes. What if you retire from 2, that's 4. Where's the advantage in that exactly? By skipping 2 races, you are forced to finish all the rest in the points and score as much as possible. Again, where the heck do you see an advantage in purposefully skipping a race and/or retiring so you can drop a zero instead of a points finish? If you still can't see the flaw in your logic, then I guess you need to really think this over again. You are suggesting people can exploit this system by skipping races, as if retirements never happen and as if points finishes are always guaranteed. Sorry, but that's just stupid.


As opposed to this handicap system, which is based on... championship standings.


Not quite. This is not a system, this is based on the moderator's decision. I'm talking about a system which runs on its own, without moderator interference. It's not the same thing, even if a moderator's decision MAY be based on championship standings. But it also may not.

No, it means that I've bothered to show up for every race. If I'd skipped one, I wouldn't even be threatened with the Cooper.


Feel free to skip races, but again, what I explained above... it's a disadvantage.  Roll Eyes


Now what are the odds of that happening?

No need to be sarcastic. What do you suggest, that we slow down so you can be pleased?


Yeah, it's called "skip one the first three races so you don't get handicapped early in the season". Guess I am learning something.


Again, read above. Your logic is flawed. Try it yourself if you can't see the flaw, you'll learn the bad way.


Which is why the present system has allowance for moderator's discretion. My only argument is that I feel there are things they are not taking into account.


It can be made to include a circuit factor, it's not difficult. It's like we did compared to last season with the Ferrari and Brabham.


The fact that you're one of the fastest drivers in all of GPL, let alone this league, had nothing to do with it?


You're just being arrogant. Have you watched the races? It had little to do with my speed and A LOT to do with other people going off and/or retiring. It may sound amazing, but yeah, I was lucky in at least 2-3 races just when I was handicapped in the slowest cars, where up to 5 drivers in front of me retired, drivers whom I otherwise had no chance to catch. The Qualifying times and grid positions show a clear picture of how little my pace was a factor for the final results.


That has special conditions depending on which mod we're using, and which track we're at. Who decides these? It's still someone's discretion, whether it's locked in before the season begins, or is done on the fly, allowing for circumstances as they arise.


It's decided mostly by using GPL Rank records, in other words - by pure car performance, excluding reliability. It's not just based on someone own view or experience of which car is quicker or slower.


My preference, but not what we all agreed to when we signed up, so moot.


That doesn't mean we can't discuss flaws and propose better systems.


Which all depends on what track we're at, and depends on how each factor affects/is affected by each individual's driving style. Needless complication for no benefit that I can see.


It just takes an additional group and 2 separation of circuit-based cars for the slowest car group (Monza, Spa etc. vs. Monaco, Jarama etc.) and it will already be much improved in terms of fairness. Plus of course the 50+ points lead landing you in the terrible Ferrari/Brabham.


So we should rely on someone's subjective view of the situation that's set in stone before the season begins, and allows NO flexibility?


Again, read above. It's not created like that, it never was...


Where they'll be able to see all of these factors, and account for them, BEFORE THE SEASON BEGINS???


Not necessary, the system does it based solely on championship standings, type of circuit and points gap. At least it's perfectly clear right from the get go, no surprises, equal for everyone.

If you "just can't accept" it, why are you still here? As you're still here, that means you've accepted it.

Hilarious! You're the one complaining here, not me! You're complaining, yet you're telling me to quietly obey the rules because I've agreed to race under them. You don't even realize I'm trying to help your case here, in the long run. I already mentioned it in the Pros discussion that I disagree you should be handicapped UNLESS we used a proper system. As soon as flaws become apparent, it's only natural to raise the point and discuss those issues.

Perhaps drop one result in first half of season and one in second half ?


Yeah, that sounds good.
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robert john
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2013, 05:20:43 PM +0000 »

The only drawback I see with dropping results in each half season would be to those who've suffered setbacks already..disco's, missed races, pc issues. I remember Alan Jones being bitter he had no chance of winning 1979 title because of this system. But to be fair, he wasn't handicapped, unless you consider he was driving the FW06 for first few races. Then again, Ferrari didn't have the T4 until 3rd race.

Let's all show up in the BT14 at Jarama. Might even give me a shot at a podium.  Grin

Peace

RJ
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2013, 05:26:22 PM +0000 »

I really don't see worst results dropped as being an issue, at all. It's a good thing, it gives a chance for anyone who has had bad races or couldn't make a race, to still come back in the championship. Is it guaranteed? Of course not, but at least it gives you a chance, as opposed to scoring from all races. In that case any retirement or missed race is very difficult, if not impossible, to overcome given the current point system. If we are to removed the worst results drop, we would have to change the point system so a win would have a much bigger impact than 2nd place, 2nd to 3rd, and so on.
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robert john
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2013, 05:52:41 PM +0000 »

And Hristo, you are, like it or not, a 1%er so to speak. That is to say in the top 1% of all GPL'rs. You can probably expect less ....empathy ?  from most commoners. Not exactly fair but a price to pay being a pop star.   laugh

Peace

RJ
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 05:56:17 PM +0000 by robert john » Logged
robert john
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2013, 06:03:14 PM +0000 »

And Dean Logan, you are too fast for Privateers although that's a totally different topic. I don't think that should factor in this series though.  Huh
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2013, 07:41:39 PM +0000 »

And Hristo, you are, like it or not, a 1%er so to speak. That is to say in the top 1% of all GPL'rs. You can probably expect less ....empathy ?  from most commoners. Not exactly fair but a price to pay being a pop star.   laugh

Peace

RJ

I'm not speaking for everyone, just for myself, but when we discuss league issues, experience and facts have to be taken into account.
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BadBlood
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« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2013, 08:51:38 PM +0000 »

Haven't really spent too much time looking through all the tired arguments but we published a deliberately hazy set of rules for handicapping so that the moderator could be flexible. If you don't like that system, don't join the series. If you have, we take that as your assent to the rules. Unless we have made an error the rules will not change mid-season but feel free to whinge about it in the mid season review which will be underway in a week or two.
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BadBlood

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Boggy
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« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2013, 09:25:33 PM +0000 »

I think the problem here is that the handicapping says after the third race the leading three drivers "may" be assigned a slower car, not "will" be assigned a slower car. The may infers that there might be circumstances when a leading driver "may not" be assigned a slower car
comments please....

Boggy
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2013, 03:25:13 AM +0000 »

Haven't really spent too much time looking through all the tired arguments but we published a deliberately hazy set of rules for handicapping so that the moderator could be flexible. If you don't like that system, don't join the series. If you have, we take that as your assent to the rules. Unless we have made an error the rules will not change mid-season but feel free to whinge about it in the mid season review which will be underway in a week or two.

Now, now, what's with the dictatorship, Paul? That's the easy route out, say that whoever doesn't like it should just quit. You can do better than this...

If you really can't see the flaws of the current system then I'm worried about the future of this league. Calling it a tired argument is a bit arrogant, don't you think? Unless you actually oppose logic with logic and prove that the current system is superior, it remains an open discussion, whether you like it or not.


I think the problem here is that the handicapping says after the third race the leading three drivers "may" be assigned a slower car, not "will" be assigned a slower car. The may infers that there might be circumstances when a leading driver "may not" be assigned a slower car
comments please....

Boggy

Exactly.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 03:27:32 AM +0000 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

Billy Nobrakes
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2013, 10:56:31 AM +0000 »

Maddog is now signed up to drive in the Heavy division.
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Leading from the back at Black Night Racing
MagicArsouille
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2013, 12:36:03 PM +0000 »

just a question......the results of watkins glenn are still provisionals ( under moderation ) ....so this can change the actual drivers standing.... or not ?.....if there is a little possibility that the final standing can change, it's maybe a too early to give any handicap at this state ?..... Kiss
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maddog
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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2013, 12:45:18 PM +0000 »

Maddog is now signed up to drive in the Heavy division.

Ye Gads!  Umm, well I'd better say something.  The Le Mans 24hr race was known for decades, for delving deep into the rule books, to try to stop, or hamper teams it didn't want to win.  But as long as the rules were fixed before the season started, everyone had a reasonable framework to play in, and the teams kept on coming.

Serious racers have always looked to stretch the rules to their advantage.  It's naive to think otherwise.  In general, in the real world, rules have only been changed mid-season, for reasons of safety.
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tintin
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2013, 03:17:25 PM +0000 »

If you don't like that system, don't join the series.
+1

Quelle purge ce D Logan !! Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 03:20:16 PM +0000 by tintin » Logged
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