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  • S24Pro Rouen: April 16, 2013
April 16, 2013, 10:38:54 PM +0100 - Rouen (1955-70) - UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Professionals Trophy (65)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Hristo Itchov
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 1 2:02.905
119.081mph
1 49:57.070
117.200mph
24 2:02.684
119.296mph
Dunlop  
Clutch4
 Mountside Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 2 +0.554
118.547mph
2 +9.655
116.824mph
24 2:03.710
118.306mph
Goodyear  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 3 +0.666
118.440mph
3 +12.467
116.714mph
24 2:04.263
117.780mph
Dunlop  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 6 +1.849
117.316mph
4 +39.396
115.679mph
24 2:05.004
117.082mph
Goodyear  
DLogan
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 10 +2.566
116.646mph
5 +1:07.572
114.616mph
24 2:05.027
117.060mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 12 +3.516
115.769mph
6 +1:21.591
114.094mph
24 2:05.798
116.343mph
Goodyear  
JonnyO
 Team Coyote
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 11 +3.506
115.779mph
7 +1:33.290
113.662mph
24 2:05.592
116.534mph
Dunlop  
AnGex
 Black Night Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 5 +1.642
117.511mph
8 +1:42.560
113.322mph
24 2:07.091
115.159mph
Dunlop  
Ronniepeterson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 7 +1.895
117.273mph
9 +2L
114.507mph
22 2:04.416
117.635mph
Goodyear  
natan5
 NVRacing
BRM P261 (1965) F1 1965 9 +2.225
116.964mph
10 +10.172
114.094mph
22 2:05.871
116.275mph
engine
Dunlop  
s2173
 Team7
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 8 +1.971
117.202mph
11 +14L
113.614mph
10 2:06.420
115.770mph
Disco
Dunlop  
MagicArsouille
 
Honda RA272 F1 1965 4 +0.954
118.164mph
12 +19L
114.814mph
5 2:04.539
117.519mph
Disco
Goodyear  
UKGPL 8
 
Brabham BT7 (Climax) F1 1965 13 13 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

A very clean red zone and no other incidents reported.
Easy for the moderator ;D

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1965
2:02.684
---
Hristo Itchov
Race
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965)April 16, 2013, 10:38:54 PM +0100
S24Pro
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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Professionals Trophy (65) - Rouen - Apr 16  (Read 10166 times)
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BadBlood
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« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2013, 04:00:06 PM +0100 »

Food for thought. Thanks. We definitely want to overhaul the handicap system for Season 25. Partly depends on whether we can run Inters or not.
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Flow
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2013, 10:27:38 AM +0100 »

Why isn´t the handycap system abolished completely? What does it offer? Where is the sense in affecting the championship in an artificial way? Can´t we do a poll to let the drivers decide if the majority wants a handycap system or not? No matter if there is a handycap or not intermediates won´t be able to fight for podium. Does it matter if they are 50 points behind or 100 at the end of the season? Fastest driver should win, end of story. No matter if it happens after six races or after the tenth. If I am not fast enough I should try to become faster, not hope my opponents will get handycapped.
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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2013, 10:47:24 AM +0100 »

Why isn´t the handycap system abolished completely? What does it offer? Where is the sense in affecting the championship in an artificial way? Can´t we do a poll to let the drivers decide if the majority wants a handycap system or not? No matter if there is a handycap or not intermediates won´t be able to fight for podium. Does it matter if they are 50 points behind or 100 at the end of the season? Fastest driver should win, end of story. No matter if it happens after six races or after the tenth. If I am not fast enough I should try to become faster, not hope my opponents will get handycapped.

I totally agree!!

Göran

PS. The handicap hassles is an important reason for me to not run the pro this season.
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maddog
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2013, 12:18:27 PM +0100 »

With handicaps always being a contentious matter, 65's might be a candidate for a 67 style of restriction.  If properly balanced, you might see a wider range of cars being used.  Restraints could be applied by limiting the tokens available to top runners, and be fixed before the Season starts.
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2013, 12:19:20 PM +0100 »

Fastest driver should win, end of story. No matter if it happens after six races or after the tenth. If I am not fast enough I should try to become faster, not hope my opponents will get handycapped.

Unfortunately some don't think like that and prefer to slow down others, rather then work to become faster. I'm OK with handicap, as long as it's not severe. Giving people BT7 and Cooper I consider a severe handicap, unless they have a huge lead in the points. Likewise in all other divisions and mods we run in UKGPL.
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 12:29:35 PM +0100 »

With handicaps always being a contentious matter, 65's might be a candidate for a 67 style of restriction.  If properly balanced, you might see a wider range of cars being used.  Restraints could be applied by limiting the tokens available to top runners, and be fixed before the Season starts.

I like the 67 token system a lot. Puts a nice flavor to the competition. Dunno why it isnt used for every series.
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john roberts
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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 01:50:19 PM +0100 »

With handicaps always being a contentious matter, 65's might be a candidate for a 67 style of restriction.  If properly balanced, you might see a wider range of cars being used.  Restraints could be applied by limiting the tokens available to top runners, and be fixed before the Season starts.

if you limit the number of tokens for top runners you would he handicapping them and that is totally against against the point of the tokens system which gives everybody the same amount of tokens (depending on the number of races you start and if before half way point of the season) .

so if you were to limit the number of tokens for top drivers you would be forcing them into slower cars , it would be handicapping . the token system gives each driver equal number of token and lets them spend them as they wish over a season . 
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« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2013, 03:00:42 PM +0100 »

Unfortunately some don't think like that and prefer to slow down others, rather then work to become faster.
LOL

It was me who did enforce the no handicap rule in Pro!

Its my 5th season in 65s and I work hard to become faster Grin
I made the decision to not take a Lotus for this season because I thought the Int drivers should have a little advantage taking the top cars.
But most of the aliens took it...

So for the next season we will have a Lotus 33 spec series Tongue
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2013, 03:07:01 PM +0100 »

Unfortunately some don't think like that and prefer to slow down others, rather then work to become faster.
LOL

It was me who did enforce the no handicap rule in Pro!

Its my 5th season in 65s and I work hard to become faster Grin
I made the decision to not take a Lotus for this season because I thought the Int drivers should have a little advantage taking the top cars.
But most of the aliens took it...

So for the next season we will have a Lotus 33 spec series Tongue


I don't see why you have to take it personally. What I said is really true about some people, without mentioning names. You can't say everyone is willing to practice hard and improve, because that's simply not true. As for Lotus, I took it because I've never driven it properly before and because I was expecting this to be a no-handicap series.

As for tokens, it's not a handicap system at all, so whether we use it or not, what you end up with is a pure driver's championship that is only decided by ability and no outside intervention. As I said though, I don't mind some form of handicap, as long as it doesn't become too severe or inconsistent.
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2013, 04:01:45 PM +0100 »

I'm not really a fan of handicapping though will always respect the Mods decision and fully understand the valid reasons for it. Personally I'd rather run around at the back and be fairly beaten by those faster than me that beat someone who has been forced to drive a slower car. If they choose that car of their own free will, then thats fine.

Take Rouen for example. After years of trying, i actually managed to maintain pace with Itchov and even challenged for the lead on raw pace alone. I have been waiting years to try to beat one of the fastest GPL players in the world in 'equal' machinery, as that gives such a great sense of achievement. If Itchov had been driving round in a BT7, it wouldn't have meant as much to me as the competition isn't 'equal' and the result hasn't been earnt.

It will be years again till that happens (as i'm a Rouen specialist to a degree), but its worth it to have a race where the result was decided on race pace alone.

Fastest guy should win, though i realise there is a risk of the Championship being over after a few races, which could, if it happens all the time, lead to a decline in numbers competing. 3 divisions is the answer for 65's, shame we don't really have the numbers to make it happen this year.

I think its such a difficult balance for the Mods as a slower can can be an advantage at some circuits and the quality of driving from the really fast guys at UKGPL means they can win in almost anything to a degree, but still, thats my thoughts. As long as we're not too hard on the Mods who are trying to do a difficult job and keep everyone happy. Full respect from me.
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« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2013, 04:28:24 PM +0100 »

Quote from: Hristo
I don't see why you have to take it personally. What I said is really true about some people, without mentioning names.
Of course I take this personally! I am atm in the situation "to slow down others"!
If not, give real facts! I still remember some earlier posts!

I hate being handicapped too, so I try to do my best when I have to handicap someone.
I was handicapped in my first 65s season (S21) with a Cooper at Monza, just compare this to your Mexico handicap!
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« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2013, 05:30:33 PM +0100 »

Handicapping becomes an issue, when it's not done well.  The ultimate handicapping system, would be to slow everyone except last place.  A lot more pre-race work involved for Moderators, and 18 abreast across the finish line, might increase the incident report workload.  But there'd be some great racing, and many complaints of injustice. Grin

The 67's token system gives midfield racers, an opportunity to get a glimpse of championship hopefuls.  It allows more strategy, and more variety, than being forced into the fastest cars, to mount a serious challenge.  

Applying tokens to create a handicap for 65's, would be easily understood, harder to debate,  and add no extra Moderation work to operate.  Chassis would need to be accurately consigned, for this to fully work.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 05:32:51 PM +0100 by maddog » Logged
Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2013, 06:04:15 PM +0100 »

Quote from: Hristo
I don't see why you have to take it personally. What I said is really true about some people, without mentioning names.
Of course I take this personally! I am atm in the situation "to slow down others"!
If not, give real facts! I still remember some earlier posts!

The earlier posts were about your moderator's functions, not your ability as a driver. I've seen you be very competitive in GTs, which means you can be quick if you get the hang of it. I wasn't really referring to you because I haven't seen you demand a handicap system and as you just said, you prefer no handicap. Having been yourself handicapped, you should know it's just not fair at times, especially on some tracks and especially when the competition you have is very close with regard to raw pace, not counting chassis.

The point was, as Clutch just explained in more detail, there is much less satisfaction and much less value in beating someone quicker than you, simply because they were handicapped. I never expected handicaps for those quicker than me in my earlier years, it didin't even occur as a thought, because it seems disrespectful to them, to those who have worked hard to get to that level and to maintain that level. If someone wants wins and points gifted due to handicap, then how can I respect such a person? Why should someone lose a position to someone else not based on ability, but on chassis alone? I was OK with it for years, I struggled in the BT7 and produced some of my best qualifyings and races ever (even a win at Monza!), I don't even think I can come close to that now due to some outside circumstances, but there comes a point where you just get fed up by it because nothing ever changes and people just label you as "the BT7 driver" and don't even bother to improve anymore. Last season in F2s I was stuck for most part in the much slower Ferrari car, and even though I managed victories, they were not because I was fastest, but because others made mistakes. There was little comfort and satisfaction in winning like that. Normally I would have finished 4th, 5th or lower.

I was very pleasantly surprised by Clutch in this Rouen race, and in fact I wonder what would have been had I been in the BT11 as well. That's a great example of how someone can actually improve and bring pleasure to both himself and his opposition. It's what true racing is for me, pushing ourselves to the limit in (almost) equal machinery.
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john roberts
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« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2013, 07:39:28 PM +0100 »

Applying tokens to create a handicap for 65's, would be easily understood, harder to debate,  and add no extra Moderation work to operate.  Chassis would need to be accurately consigned, for this to fully work.

sorry but i don't quite follow your logic here , applying a token system would not be a handicap system . doing so would hopefully give you mixed grids and stop people just taking the fastest car all the time , but everybody would be treated the same .
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maddog
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« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2013, 08:17:16 PM +0100 »

I meant by that, applying a token system with an added restriction for front runners, which you have already responded to further up the page.  I'm suggesting a seamless homogenous conglomeration - and "I'm wearin' me dictionary out 'ere!" Cheesy
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