UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Privateers Trophy (67) - Kyalami - Apr 21

[DLogan]

...Florian, if it was just you, since it's your first season, it would be fine...

Yet for someone else, also in their first season at UKGPL, and their very first season ever using the 67 cars online, not so much? Should the fact that there seem to be four or five of us at the same time change the standard?

...The problem (as I see it) though is that currently at least some 4-5 drivers who are Works material are racing here and robbing the chance of slower drivers (whom the division is meant to be for)...

From the league page: "The Privateers Trophy is intended to provide an introduction to the original 1967 car set with the more accomplished drivers joining the complementary Works division..."

I don't see anything about "slow" in there. I read it as "less experienced in the 67 cars", and I fit that bill to a "T".

How is someone supposed to be an "accomplished" driver before having a chance to accomplish anything?

...You can clearly see the gap in lap times...

You sure can, but only after the fact.

...I don't know whether this is how the divisions should operate right now or not, but it wasn't like this in the past, just saying.

So there's never before been a rookie in Privateers who showed themself to be markedly quicker than the average Priv driver, and was quickly promoted at the end of the season? I find that difficult to believe.

When I joined, I looked at the competition in both leagues, saw Cookie, Andreas, Florian and Sky in Privateers, and figured I'd get some good racing in here (with less pressure than the Works series), and I have. Next season, I expect at least two of them to join me in moving to Works, where chances of being up at the sharp end will be slim, indeed. I only hope I can keep some of the consistency (that I've been working hard at) while gaining a whole lot of speed from somewhere.

[tintin]

You are my guide.

So I was not angry - I was confused.  You decide if we make work for the Moderators.

If you are confused i accept to believe the incident is closed too for me.
And please don't believe (do not think , do not write ) I had have a "unfriendly behavior" . It was just the contrary.
CU with pleasure

[Hristo Itchov]

Yet for someone else, also in their first season at UKGPL, and their very first season ever using the 67 cars online, not so much? Should the fact that there seem to be four or five of us at the same time change the standard?

Dean, you and your nonsense again. Not all of those who are Works material are in their first 67s season here, and even less so their first UKGPL season. It's one thing for a newcomer who's unknown to the league, and quite another when you know very well what someone is capable of after racing with them for a few years. In the past you would not see non-UKGPL rookies who are quick being allowed to the lower divisions, and the championship stats are for everyone to see. You can also compare lap time differences and see that this and probably last season, we've had almost equal lap times at the top between Works and Privateers. Privateers is not meant for rookies, it's meant for slower people, otherwise it would be a rather empty division every season.

[DLogan]

...Dean, you and your nonsense again...

Nice to know that any concerns I may have can be considered seriously and not constantly dismissed as "nonsense" (just not by _you_ apparently). :finger:

...It's one thing for a newcomer who's unknown to the league, and quite another when you know very well what someone is capable of after racing with them for a few years...

How would anyone know what I'm capable of in a 67 car, having NEVER RACED THEM IN A LEAGUE BEFORE I ARRIVED HERE?? (sorry for caps, but that point seems to not be penetrating Hristo's consciousness)

Likewise, I HAVE raced 65s, 69s, GTs, and the F2s in leagues prior to arriving here, and looking at the times from previous races, found that the best place for me was in the faster divisions, even though my chances of victory in those was (aside from the mixed GT/CanAm series where the local hotshoes are not to be found) somewhere between slim and none.

...You can also compare lap time differences and see that this and probably last season, we've had almost equal lap times at the top between Works and Privateers...

I only checked this season (at the common tracks) and polesitter in Privs would have been 7th (by 1.3s), 7th (by 2.3s), 3rd (by 1.4s) and 4th (by 1.5s) on the Works grid, hardly "almost equal".

...Privateers is not meant for rookies, it's meant for slower people, otherwise it would be a rather empty division every season.

League page says less "accomplished", and again, how is someone supposed to show that they are "accomplished" without a chance to "accomplish" anything? 

[James Andrew]

Privateers is not meant for rookies, it's meant for slower people, otherwise it would be a rather empty division every season.

What he said. I've been a member here for quite a few years now (missed a few seasons when I had no PC) and also rarely drive anything EXCEPT the 67 cars. So I am in no way a rookie. However, I'm so slow that it's still embarrassing every single week. Therefore, while I yearn for a few more challenging tracks, I cannot possibly consider asking to participate in a different division.

If people can post times which would be competitive in Works, and able not to spin off a lot, I was under the impression they get "encouraged" to move up.

[Hristo Itchov]

I only checked this season (at the common tracks) and polesitter in Privs would have been 7th (by 1.3s), 7th (by 2.3s), 3rd (by 1.4s) and 4th (by 1.5s) on the Works grid, hardly "almost equal".

If 3rd and 4th in Works is not competitive, then I don't know what is...

This is not my attempt to make someone feel bad for driving here. Obviously the moderators have allowed it, so it's legal. I'm just questioning the deciding factor when someone is put in Privateers instead of in Works, apart from filling in the numbers. As Al pointed out, you can't just excuse yourself by saying it's the first time you race the cars. With that kind of logic I may demand that I'm put in a lower division for a new mod (say Can Am, because I never raced it). How's that sound to you?

What I meant with Florian is, it's fine if a new driver to the league debuts in a division he's never raced before, because neither he would know the level of competition, nor would the mods know the newcomer's ability. If he happens to dominate the division right from the get go, then there's still time for moving him up. If he happens to improve over the course of a season and then begins to dominate, then I see no problem - the guy deserves to win it.

As was discussed before, it would be nice to test newcomers so they can be assessed and put in the correct divisions, but for people who have been racing here for years, I just don't see any excuse being viable. Sure, some people may become slower over time, past their peak, etc., but the difference to the past is never that great and the potential of top performance is always present.

[bernie]

You dont have to have raced 67's on line to know how good you are , or any other mod for that matter , there's plenty of benchmarks to compare times .

[DLogan]

I only checked this season (at the common tracks) and polesitter in Privs would have been 7th (by 1.3s), 7th (by 2.3s), 3rd (by 1.4s) and 4th (by 1.5s) on the Works grid, hardly "almost equal".

If 3rd and 4th in Works is not competitive, then I don't know what is...

If completely ignoring the 7th and 7th also mentioned in my post is not willfully blind, then I don't know what is. 

You didn't say "competitive", either, you said "almost equal".

...I'm just questioning the deciding factor when someone is put in Privateers instead of in Works, apart from filling in the numbers...

There was some self-assessment involved, the mods allowed it, I'm having fun racing against others close to my abilities (Cookie and Flo are, too, I believe), and I've already stated my willingness to be promoted to Works for next season.

...As Al pointed out, you can't just excuse yourself by saying it's the first time you race the cars. With that kind of logic I may demand that I'm put in a lower division for a new mod (say Can Am, because I never raced it). How's that sound to you?...

I'd actually be fine with it. I also expect you'd get bored very quickly, as there would probably be no one near your level, and would insist on moving at the end of the season, if not sooner.

...If he happens to dominate the division right from the get go, then there's still time for moving him up...

If I was dominating the Privs from the get-go, I'd have already moved.

...people who have been racing here for years, I just don't see any excuse being viable...

I haven't been, so your point is invalid.

[Flow]

Just curious. Why are you so eager to bring "justice" into a league you arent racing in at all and thus have no business with, Hristo?

[Hristo Itchov]

If completely ignoring the 7th and 7th also mentioned in my post is not willfully blind, then I don't know what is.  

You didn't say "competitive", either, you said "almost equal".

And why shouldn't I ignore them? You don't judge a potential by the worse results. Almost equal to most drivers in a division, not to the fastest. The top divisions have no upper cap, unlike the lower ones.

There was some self-assessment involved, the mods allowed it, I'm having fun racing against others close to my abilities (Cookie and Flo are, too, I believe), and I've already stated my willingness to be promoted to Works for next season.

I don't see why you take all of this personally? Do you feel targeted by my post? Do you feel you're not in the right division? If so then why are you justifying your presence in this division by saying you enjoy racing with others who are potentially Works material as well? It only reinforces my point that this currently robs the actual drivers who are suitable for this division from competing for the top spots.

I'd actually be fine with it. I also expect you'd get bored very quickly, as there would probably be no one near your level, and would insist on moving at the end of the season, if not sooner.

If I follow your logic, I would be fine with it if others of my ability join me and we race together, even if we're not meant for that division.  

If I was dominating the Privs from the get-go, I'd have already moved.

That's not what I said, at all. I said if someone happens to dominate from the start, then he should be moved. If a group of people dominate, it's more complicated. That's why it should be decided carefully before the season start. If someone begins to dominate as the season unfolds, as a sign of improvement, then so be it. Likewise if a group of people improve relative to each other, but that's very unlikely to happen.

I haven't been, so your point is invalid.

You've raced 3 years ago, I remember you very well (your name is memorable   ). I don't know whether you raced elsewhere since then or not, but don't pretend as if you're new to GPL.  

Just curious. Why are you so eager to bring "justice" into a league you arent racing in at all and thus have no business with, Hristo?

Do you prefer that we keep our eyes closed to such things, Florian? I just know that some people here are unhappy with how the supposedly "their" division has turned into a sort-of a copy of Works and they're racing for the minor points all the time. Don't take it so personally. If you feel you have every right to race here, then that's fine. I'm just raising the point because it has caught my attention when I look at the results after each race.

[Flow]

Just curious. Why are you so eager to bring "justice" into a league you arent racing in at all and thus have no business with, Hristo?

Do you prefer that we keep our eyes closed to such things, Florian? I just know that some people here are unhappy with how the supposedly "their" division has turned into a sort-of a copy of Works and they're racing for the minor points all the time. Don't take it so personally. If you feel you have every right to race here, then that's fine. I'm just raising the point because it has caught my attention when I look at the results after each race.

Who is we? Can´t these unhappy drivers speak for themselves? If you attack Dean, then this accusations indirectly are pointed to me as well, because you don´t seem to pay attention to his arguments. Everything you say about him can then be said about me as well. So I apologize to everyone whose racing experience I might have destroyed this season by recklessly joining the wrong division. I will handycap myself now for the last races, so others can win. [/irony]

[Hristo Itchov]

See, that's what is working against having a normal discussion every time - people overreacting and acting like you stepped on their toes. When exactly did I attack Dean? Perhaps you will notice it was his attempt to reply to me in a sarcastic manner which led to the exchange between us that followed? I was only speaking generally, yet people started taking it personally. Doesn't this prove those same people feel that maybe there is truth in what I say and that this is not the right division for them? If not, why act so insecure and argue?

You speak of accusations, I say it's just a point of view. You don't have to agree with it, but if you can't come up with common sense reasoning to argue against it, why do we have to go down to a personal level and try to insult each other, or to act butthurt? Give me solid reasons for the top group of drivers that I can't deny and I'll admit I was wrong, but so far I haven't seen any of that. All I see is people pretending they're rookies when they're not, pretending they're slower than they actually are and people who insist this division is not meant for slower drivers.

Whether you handicap yourself or not is totally up to you, nobody is asking for that, nor am I saying everyone should suddenly move to Works. It's too late to do changes so far into the season. The discussion is a look into how things should be done in the future, whereas you and the group you're racing regularly at the top serves only as an example...

[DLogan]

...yet people started taking it personally...

You're right, we shouldn't feel slighted in the least when people start using words like "nonsense", "insecure" and "butthurt".

...Doesn't this prove those same people feel that maybe there is truth in what I say and that this is not the right division for them?...

Or you're refusing to see their points of view.

...people who insist this division is not meant for slower drivers...

I never said that. I mentioned that the league pages state that this league is for those who had not proven themselves yet, and I included myself in that group with facts that I believe justified that conclusion.

...The discussion is a look into how things should be done in the future...

Then the appropriate place for it would be in a "season review" thread (I'm assuming such a thing will exist at a suitable time). Otherwise, you're just shit disturbing, which I've been led to believe is inappropriate conduct on these forums.

[Hristo Itchov]

You're right, we shouldn't feel slighted in the least when people start using words like "nonsense", "insecure" and "butthurt".

This was already after your attempt for sarcasm and taking it personally.  

Or you're refusing to see their points of view.

I saw them and discussed them and they come up as an excuse rather than a point of view.

I never said that. I mentioned that the league pages state that this league is for those who had not proven themselves yet, and I included myself in that group with facts that I believe justified that conclusion.

Proven themselves in comparison to what or who? What is the benchmark in your opinion? How do you expect someone like James Andrew or Michael Turner (whose posts you choose not to comment, but only focus on mine) to prove themselves when you and the group at the top are out of their current skills level?

Then the appropriate place for it would be in a "season review" thread (I'm assuming such a thing will exist at a suitable time). Otherwise, you're just shit disturbing, which I've been led to believe is inappropriate conduct on these forums.

Please, if I have to rely on those "review" threads, nothing ever gets done. Those reivew threads contain topics that have been continuously raised within race threads, for the lack of separate open forum where drivers can post. If it's not for these actual discussions as things occur at each race, issues just tend to be forgotten and put behind, people tend to keep quiet, we get to hear hollow promises for some changes and then we get another season of the same thing and have to go through the same thing again, like a broken lantern.

If you want to call it shit disturbing, do so, that's what it is from a certain point of view, but I saw it as necessary and since this is a free forum, I see no reason why I shouldn't point things out the way I see them. It's neither spam nor out of topic, it's right where it belongs, where people can compare actual facts and not generalize. Now why don't stop focusing on my opinion only and look at how things stand overall for everyone in this division? Remember, I don't race here, I'm not the one who benefits by arguing about these issues. In fact I'm indirectly asking for more competition in Works, for the sake of enjoyment and fairness.

[s2173]

 Can you both tell me what you are "ärguing" about actually? It seems to me you're hammering down points with which everyone agrees and you question behaviour that doesn't really exist and opinions that aren't actually spoken. Yes, some people will move up a division next season, yes, there is an unfortunate chain of events that caused faster drivers to go into lower division, yes, that is not fair, yes, no one is to blame, yes, no one can do anything about it, yes, moderators are guilty for everything, yes, my spelling sucks.

In the end you will fill 3 pages with quotes and counter-quotes, and after that a mod will come and tell you to shut up.