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  • S24SC Zolder: May 24, 2013
May 24, 2013, 10:37:29 PM +0100 - Zolder (1965-72) - UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Sports Car Trophy
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
clouds
 Shadows
Porsche 910 GT 1967 1 1:31.559
102.316mph
1 45:22.160
99.800mph
29 1:31.945
101.887mph
Dunlop  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Ferrari 330/P4 GT 1967 2 +0.438
101.829mph
2 +8.366
99.494mph
29 1:31.694
102.166mph
Firestone  
DLogan
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 6 +1.181
101.013mph
3 +20.469
99.055mph
29 1:32.331
101.461mph
Dunlop  
Mark Jones
 
Lola T70 MkIII GT 1967 4 +0.555
101.700mph
4 +41.478
98.302mph
29 1:33.339
100.365mph
Goodyear  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 3 +0.502
101.758mph
5 +1:04.347
97.495mph
29 1:32.794
100.955mph
Dunlop  
Al Heller
 Clark-Hill Racing
Mirage M1 GT 1967 7 +1.717
100.433mph
6 +3L
94.227mph
26 1:34.069
99.586mph
Disco
Firestone  
JonnyO
 Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 9 +2.266
99.845mph
7 +4L
99.049mph
25 1:32.554
101.216mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 8 +2.195
99.921mph
8 +48.624
97.053mph
25 1:34.084
99.570mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Ronniepeterson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +0.922
101.296mph
9 (+1) +19L
93.942mph
10 1:33.356
100.347mph
Disco
Dunlop  
UKGPL 8
 
Chaparral Mk2D GT 1967 10 10 DNS ---
---
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

Al has reported an incident on lap 3. The detail is that Ronnie attempts to outbrake Al into the slow hairpin on Lap 3 and contact is made, causing Al to spin out whilst Ronnie continues.

Al also reports in his submission that there was a similar near miss on lap 1. As this incident has been reported I have looked at the replay.

The GT's present their own special problems on some circuits where the Porsche comes into its own and where it can take full advantage of its better roadholding and the ability to carry more speed through a corner than most of the other cars. The Porker may lose out on longer straights but its late braking and better cornering can often more than regain any lost ground.

Having studied both incidents from various angles and from within both cars I have the following observations to make.

As regards the lap 1 "near miss". Ronnie exits the previous corner carrying slightly more speed than Al is managing on cold tyres and immediately lines himself up for a possible pass on the inside of the next corner.

Al is moving to his right as if to defend his position, which he is fully entitled to do, but he appears to register that Ronnie is on the move and corrects his line slightly to the left effectively "opening the door" from Ronnies's perspective. Ronnie accepts the offer and presses his Porsche up the inside and is definitely in Al's blind spot by the time the turn in point comes.

Al does leave some room at the apex, but not really enough for another car and Ronnie is squeezed onto the grass to avoid contact.

It is difficult to know what a driver has, or has not, seen from watching a replay and a moderator can only judge on what he sees happening. In this instance, I think Al should have been aware that Ronnie was quite possibly well alongside as he entered the braking zone and turn in point and left more room.

This goes down as a caution to Al be careful when cars are in his blind spot and leave more room. As this was a racing incident on lap 1, but no contact was actually made, I am calling this a racing incident

I cannot comment on Team tactics or championship title possibilities here as those factors do not enter into my remit as an incident moderator. That is something for team members to agree between themselves before the race..Incidentally, UKGPL DOES allow team orders!)

The Lap 3 incident is dealt with below.


Server replay time: 0h00m43s

The start... oh dear...

Off the line Mark lights up his wheels and his car wobbles a little.

Unfortunately Cookie is slow away and Ronnie has to move out to overtake... into the space Mark is wobbling into. The collision box takes over and spins Ronnie and Mark although no contact is made. That knocks Ronnie into Cookie who collects Al whilst Ronnie's spinning top attaches itself to Dean.

This is a result of a tightish grid and narrow track and some special ciurcumstances. Mark should be aware that he is required to keep the car straight though. Bit harsh on Mark who comes off worst on Lap 23 despit doing no wrong....

The etiquette section has this: "When starting, each driver must make sure they keep their car straight and fully in control."


Server replay time: 0h05m18s

The incident on lap 3 however is slightly different. It is quite plain that Ronnie is anxious to get past Al and believes that he can go quicker. This may be true, but Al is under no compulsion to yield track position and is using the extra grunt of the Mirage on the straights to good advantage and taking a defensive line into most corners to deny Ronnie any gaps to exploit.

Ronnie attempts to outbrake Al into the hairpin and sticks his car down the inside.

Whilst it might be true that Ronnie could have made the corner because of the sure handling of the Porker, if Al had left him room, he did not achieve anywhere near 100% overlap before Al turned in on the same line that he had used on the previous lap.
This issue about "turn in point" is always contentious because it is plain the Al's line through this corner is going to be totally different from Ronnie's because he has the whole track to use and as a result he starts his turn towards the apex far earlier than Ronnie possibly can. Because Ronnie is hard against the inside of the circuit his turn in point will be at the point where the inner kerb begins to turn.
Which is why we have the ruling that makes it the responsibility of the overtaking car to make a clean pass and gain 100% overlap before he can claim the corner.

I think Ronnie was always heading for a gap that was about to disappear and was just a little too far back to get 100% overlap before Al started his turn in to the apex.

Rules have this: "The overtaking car had NOT achieved a 50% or greater overlap at the point of turn-in. There was no loss of control by either driver. Penalty for overtaking driver"


Server replay time: 0h36m19s

Evil goes for a pass on Mark and Mark leaves room. Although Evil is sliding wide there is contact and Mark spins off. This is an example of GPL's poor contact modelling. The cars do not, in fact, touch. But GPL models a severe collision. Mark has generously asked that no penalty be given and in this instance as both drivers behaved correctly, it is probably the right call.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 24 (2013) Sports Car Trophy - Zolder - May 24  (Read 5135 times)
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BadBlood
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« on: May 22, 2013, 10:57:06 AM +0100 »

Last time out for the GT cars and we stay in Belgium but move up the road to Zolder.

Zolder was built in 1963 but it didn't host the Belgian Grand Prix until 1973.  Zolder hosted the Formula One Belgian Grand Prix on 10 separate occasions in the 1970s and 1980s.  But when Spa Franchorchamps was significantly revised and the safety standards vastly improved the Grand Prix returned to it's original home and Zolder fell out of favour.

Remember that you will have to chose a different car for this race and by now your choice is becoming limited.


"Please ensure you are aware of the new in-series penalties for this season. Details are here. Drivers incurring a penalty will receive a PM informing them of this."


Race listiGOR
ServerUKGPL_T7
IP address62.149.202.168
Date24-05-2013
Race timeRace starts at 09:30 UK time
Qualifying timeBetween 30 and 60 minutes, starting no later than 21:00 UK time
TrackZolder 67
ModGT
Damage modelINT (Each driver is allowed a single Shift-R)
Race length29 laps
ReplayAvailable here


For this event the red zone will be from the START line to BUTTE


« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 11:01:33 AM +0100 by BadBlood » Logged

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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2013, 10:10:11 PM +0100 »

Interesting start as ever with a tight grid. One cart horse and one bucking horse to contend with!

Sorry Al for tipping you round as I suspect you are annoyed. I tried to make myself large in your mirror so you knew which side I was coming down; obviously not big enough.

But loss of sound? early on led to an off and a subsequent blown engine to end the night early for me. Good luck to everyone still running.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 10:26:00 PM +0100 by Ronniepeterson » Logged
BadBlood
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2013, 11:05:57 PM +0100 »

I was in a bit of a panic and was just setting up UKGPL3 with a loose grid as I had found T7 didn't have the right Zolder on it and we can't download tracks Sad

Cookie had got UKGPL8 running though - danke schoen, Axel.

As per usual, couldn't get sorted in time to race Sad

Hope you enjoyed it.

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Al Heller
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2013, 11:25:21 PM +0100 »

Interesting start as ever with a tight grid. One cart horse and one bucking horse to contend with!

Sorry Al for tipping you round as I suspect you are annoyed. I tried to make myself large in your mirror so you knew which side I was coming down; obviously not big enough.

I guess we have a different definition of the word 'teammate' Ronnie...

You dived up the inside long after we'd turned-in, so even if I had seen you coming (not easy in these cars) I don't really know where you expected me to go? I was already committed to the corner & clearly heading for the apex when you made your move. Honestly, I do think you need to take a look at the paragraph on "Corner Rights" & establishing overlap after the turn-in point here: http://www.ukgpl.com/rec_dvr_beh/rec_driver_beh.htm.

If you'd pulled alongside earlier it would have been a different story - I do generally try to leave room for anyone I am racing (& that little bit of extra room for teammates) but I didn't expect that kind of do-or-die move on lap 3 out of 29.   
 
P.S. sorry to Cookie who got caught up in all the mess

 
   
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 11:38:22 PM +0100 by Al Heller » Logged
Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2013, 09:23:23 AM +0100 »


I guess we have a different definition of the word 'teammate' Ronnie...

You dived up the inside long after we'd turned-in, so even if I had seen you coming (not easy in these cars) I don't really know where you expected me to go? I was already committed to the corner & clearly heading for the apex when you made your move. Honestly, I do think you need to take a look at the paragraph on "Corner Rights" & establishing overlap after the turn-in point here: http://www.ukgpl.com/rec_dvr_beh/rec_driver_beh.htm.

If you'd pulled alongside earlier it would have been a different story - I do generally try to leave room for anyone I am racing (& that little bit of extra room for teammates) but I didn't expect that kind of do-or-die move on lap 3 out of 29.   
 
P.S. sorry to Cookie who got caught up in all the mess

Hypothetically:-

On the subject of teammates. Yeah second in the series with two races to go and needing to score good points to be in with a shout, my team mates might have helped me out then again maybe not.

On the subject of leaving room. If I know someone is close behind and pressing I go left or right on the approach to a corner whether they are alongside or not as we may brake at different points. I then stay to the outside or inside line respectively. For me in the GT/Can am cars with their poor mirrors this is an absolute must.

At the end of the day we all see these things differently and I would never try and tell someone else how to drive. My immediate reaction was to apologise asap which I did. I have and never have had a problem with other drivers, team mates or not, reporting incidents where they feel I am at fault.
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2013, 10:29:33 AM +0100 »

Ronnie, you always like to say "we see things differently" but most of the time you just cause incidents out of impatience and misunderstanding of what's sensible behavior on track and what isn't. You just refuse to take any clues and keep making the same moves every time, causing the same kind of incidents every time. If you are behind someone, you simply have no right to attack once the car in front is into the corner, regardless of whether you are quicker or not, or had the intention of attacking. If there is no room, what exactly do you expect to happen?
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Al Heller
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2013, 10:42:29 AM +0100 »

Hypothetically:-

On the subject of teammates. Yeah second in the series with two races to go and needing to score good points to be in with a shout, my team mates might have helped me out then again maybe not.

On the subject of leaving room. If I know someone is close behind and pressing I go left or right on the approach to a corner whether they are alongside or not as we may brake at different points. I then stay to the outside or inside line respectively. For me in the GT/Can am cars with their poor mirrors this is an absolute must.

At the end of the day we all see these things differently and I would never try and tell someone else how to drive. My immediate reaction was to apologise asap which I did. I have and never have had a problem with other drivers, team mates or not, reporting incidents where they feel I am at fault.

Ronnie I'm not trying to tell you how to drive, but I am just trying to point out that trying to achieve overlap after turn-in does not constitute a valid overtaking attempt. You'd see what I mean if you read the link. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest about leaving room, but I certainly wasn't weaving or changing direction if that's what you mean - with two cars behind pressing me from either side, I took a tight line into the corner - which being clearly ahead & with no-one alongside at the point of turn-in, I had every right to do.

I find your comment about the role of teammates puzzling. I honestly wasn't aware that you were 2nd in the championship - I've often helped teammates in the past so perhaps next time you should let me know beforehand. Having said that, I don't recall you ever cutting me any slack when I've been at the sharp end of a championship.     
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2013, 10:43:48 AM +0100 »

I was not totally surprised to see a pack of Porkers lining up for this race as my immediate thoughts were to use that car. Maybe I should have taken the same car as I had a lap time of 1:30 on race fuel just 30 mins before our race. But I also tried out the P4 Fezza and it was almost as fast and as it was a car I had not used much I thought I would add a little colour to the grid.

For some reason I could not hook up a perfect lap in qually, but 2nd on the grid with race fuel looked promising  Wink. Sergio is always fast in a Porsche and Mark and his Lola T70 was right behind me and we all know how punchy that Lola is off the line.

The few laps I had done pre race in the P4 had presented me with some setup conundrums as the tyres went from super hot to cool very easily and I could not really work out why they changed so quickly. So, in the early laps I was trying to warm the tyres gently before trying to pressure Sergio.....I guess my patience was not enough as I ran wide and allowed Mark to get past in his T70...something I was going to regret for the rest of the race!!!

I easily closed up to Mark but although I was capable of faster lap times I did not have a clear enough advantage anywhere to actually make the pass. Several times I had to abort and allow my car to run wide when MArk's apex speed did not match what I intended lol, but each time I was able to get back on his tail.
Lap after lap I looked for a mistake big enough to give me a shot at passing, but although Mark twitched a slithered he never got it wrong enough to pass. Then I discovered that I could hold 4th gear over the crest into the left hander at the end of the back straight and carry more speed into the braking zone for the tight RH. A couple of dummy runs proved that it might be possible to get down the inside and make the move.  Then Mark wobbled a little over that crest and lost a little momentum....now or never  ninja I kept it nailed in 4th and shot down the inside and got alongside.
Although I felt no contact the evidence in my mirrors suggested that Mark had gone off. I have not yet looked at the replay, but stick in a report Mark if you think there was an issue, let the mods ( not me on this one) decide.
A real shame as it had been a great battle up until then, you had defended your place fairly and although I was faster I could not make it count. Maybe had I not allowed you through early in the race I might have given Sergio more to worry about, but who knows?

Grats to Sergio for taking advantage and cruising to win.
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 11:42:20 AM +0100 »

Ronnie I'm not trying to tell you how to drive, but I am just trying to point out that trying to achieve overlap after turn-in does not constitute a valid overtaking attempt. You'd see what I mean if you read the link.  

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest about leaving room, but I certainly wasn't weaving or changing direction if that's what you mean - with two cars behind pressing me from either side, I took a tight line into the corner - which being clearly ahead & with no-one alongside at the point of turn-in, I had every right to do.

I find your comment about the role of teammates puzzling. I honestly wasn't aware that you were 2nd in the championship - I've often helped teammates in the past so perhaps next time you should let me know beforehand. Having said that, I don't recall you ever cutting me any slack when I've been at the sharp end of a championship.      

Al, all the hypothetical comments on teamates were hypothetical and I was not asking for any favours or trying to tell you how to drive. You brought up the subject of team mates. I am merely saying I would have looked in my mirrors, decided which side to stick to and left room on the other side. Overlap was irrelevant to me due to differences in breaking points and distances. But, you were entitled to approach the corner however you wished. The outcome on this occasion was I spun you round, I admitted that, apologised and the incident report system is there for you to use or not. I don't have a problem with that.

Al, H, anyone else for that matter. You have all been involved in incidents where you may or may not have felt you were at fault and continue to be so. Please don't try and make me out to be any different regarding learning from previous incidents. Nothing more for me to say, see you at the final round.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:46:18 AM +0100 by Ronniepeterson » Logged
Al Heller
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 12:10:26 PM +0100 »

Al, all the hypothetical comments on teamates were hypothetical and I was not asking for any favours or trying to tell you how to drive. You brought up the subject of team mates. I am merely saying I would have looked in my mirrors, decided which side to stick to and left room on the other side. Overlap was irrelevant to me due to differences in breaking points and distances. But, you were entitled to approach the corner however you wished. The outcome on this occasion was I spun you round, I admitted that, apologised and the incident report system is there for you to use or not. I don't have a problem with that.

Al, H, anyone else for that matter. You have all been involved in incidents where you may or may not have felt you were at fault and continue to be so. Please don't try and make me out to be any different regarding learning from previous incidents.

Ronnie, making a comment but then saying it's "hypothetical" does not automatically invalidate that comment; I guess in the context where no incident had taken place, then a hypothetical comment could be taken objectively but in this circumstance, the obvious implication is that it refers directly to our crash. In the same way that you write how you're not telling me how to drive, but how you would have looked in your mirrors, decided which side to stick to, etc.

You were over a car's length behind me after I'd passed the 50m board & even after turn-in, barely got your nose past my rear wheels. It worries me that you say that overlap is irrelevant - I think it's the whole point.

 
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2013, 12:33:18 PM +0100 »

Al, H, anyone else for that matter. You have all been involved in incidents where you may or may not have felt you were at fault and continue to be so. Please don't try and make me out to be any different regarding learning from previous incidents. Nothing more for me to say, see you at the final round.

I'm not trying to make you look different. I'm just stating the facts - you never forget to mention how "we see things differently" and "let's move on" and so on, giving your "sorry" every time, but at the same time you never really change your approach in any way and that's why things keep on happening again and again. It just seems you never see how the way you're driving is directly connected to the accidents you get involved in, and instead prefer to simply differentiate yourself from the rest and assume it's a matter of opinion.

I'm going to repeat myself again from what I said in another thread some time ago - you are just too aggressive, too impatient, too early on in races. That's why you end up causing or get involved in accidents which could be easily avoided and anything you say afterwards doesn't change what has happened, doesn't give back someone's ruined race. Sure, I've caused accidents from time to time, but they are never of the kind where I'm just too aggressive and impatient, attacking everywhere, so there's little comparison. The only kind of accidents I usually cause are when someone goes out of pattern in front of me - braking MUCH earlier or slowing down suddenly in a place where you would expect an increase of speed. In other words, situations that are very difficult to predict.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 12:37:29 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2013, 03:33:29 PM +0100 »

Crumbs I never realised I was the only one ever involved in incidents. Have a word with the mods because they occasionally keep blaming other drivers according to recent race reports. I would hate to see anyone else incur your wrath gentlemen.  laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2013, 03:50:26 PM +0100 »

You're one of few to be constantly causing accidents and apologizing all the time in the forum here. Even now you still don't see yourself as having done anything wrong. Even if you're penalized, you still don't get any clues.
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2013, 09:11:18 PM +0100 »

  I could finish in 3rd but the internet here stopped cursing missing 4 laps ....
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  Congrats Sergio!!!!!!! clap
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 12:25:23 AM +0100 »

Thx JonnyO you are welcome !
A nice race for me but a little too much slow compared to the laptimes I made during the week preceding the race. Anyway no mistakes no loss of concentration but...honestly speaking I was watching in my rear view mirror what has happened at the green flag, and during the first 2 laps I thought more than once to slow down like being the pace car letting the other guys to regroup on me to make at least the 2nd lap like a real race. Only the fear to be involved in a unwanted heap has kept me from slow down.
About Spa (CanAm) I have realized that my ditch has been due to a broken Network Interface Card that made my PC have BSOD several times. I had to buy a new PCI NIC to fix the problem disabling via BIOS the one present on the MoBo.

See you all for the last green flag of the season before summer holidays.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 10:59:17 AM +0100 by clouds » Logged

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