UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2

[Billy Nobrakes]

Full moderation report now published.
Thanks to Robert & Boggy for their assistance.

[DLogan]

"...Only one incident of note in the Red Zone but it is T1 and affects almost half the field!..."

So the instigators (who can continue) carry on their merry way, because it's just a "racing incident", no one did anything wrong (tho how two cars are expected to occupy the same piece of track, as these two BOTH tried to do, is beyond me).

No punishments? Not even warnings? How is this NOT expected to just keep on happening?  

[Robert Fleurke]

"...Only one incident of note in the Red Zone but it is T1 and affects almost half the field!..."

So the instigators (who can continue) carry on their merry way, because it's just a "racing incident", no one did anything wrong (tho how two cars are expected to occupy the same piece of track, as these two BOTH tried to do, is beyond me).

No punishments? Not even warnings? How is this NOT expected to just keep on happening? 

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side

Contested Side by Side contact: Racing Incident

In a corner, after a legitimate overtaking attempt the cars end up side by side. Both drivers move over instead of staying on their own side of the track. Contact is made. Racing Incident.

A racing incident is a racing incident, even in the red zone. It sucks you suffered from it Dean, like Greg and Gareth. Advice has been given to Marco and Doni in the mod report, and hopefully taken...

Drivers should try and leave space in the first few corners when the field is compressed. You can't win a race at the first corner but you can lose it there. Give eachother more room after the start being alongside.

[DLogan]

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side

Contested Side by Side contact: Racing Incident

In a corner, after a legitimate overtaking attempt...

Pass attempt was NOT legitimate to begin with. There was no way Doni was going to make it past therefore this is more appropriate:

"Blatant Side by Side contact: Penalty 2 Places

On a straight, the overtaking car moves out to overtake but cuts back in too early. The victim made no mistakes and was driving their normal line at normal speed. The shunter made no allowance for the victim whatsoever and was in full control when the incident took place. There was no loss of control. Penalty for overtaking driver.
On a straight, the overtaking car moves out to overtake, maintains his line and has achieved 100% overlap but the overtaken driver moves across into him. There was no loss of control. Penalty for overtaken driver."

Both guilty of SOMETHING deserving at least a warning, at least???

Guess not, as your appraisal already has this: "Thanks Robert, great job  thumbup2"

So, five races left, and warnings about swearing flying, with race bans for it threatened?

See ya next season.

No swearing on the forum.

[Cookie]

Dean, to make it clear:

An incident moderation is nearly never the result of a single decision of a mod!

The topic: "S26 F2 Spa Grid A draft report" of Robert in the mods forum used 1,5 sites, with comments of other mods (not involved in incidents).

[Doni Yourth]

Dear me...  There's ol' Dean flying off the handle...again.  I don't expect that many of you here at the UKGPL are aware that Deaner quit a league not so very long ago in a dispute over moderation.  He came here siting consistent and more balanced moderation.  Should you mods out there pack your bags?  Guess so.

As for the Lap01, T1 shunt, I maintain that I clearly had the drop on Marco and he just failed to make allowances for me.  The replay caps...both mine and the server's...indicate that.  I made no lunge up the inside in a desperate pass attempt.  It was a done deal.  I am not in the habit of making bonehead moves at anytime in our virtual races let alone in the red zone.

Dean...your analysis is remarkably faulty and completely at odds with reality.  Thank heavens that you're not a steward or judge of fact in real races.  (At least, I'm hoping not!  )

[BadBlood]

Just to make it clear about the swearing - it is cut and dried - it is not tolerated. We are guests of SROU and have signed up to that. The race ban is there to ensure people don't 'forget'. Swearing as an issue has nothing whatsoever to do with moderation.

As for moderations, drivers can disagree with moderations and I have done so in the past. That does not mean, of itself, that the moderation is at fault. Before pronouncing about how faulty a moderation is, spend the hour reviewing the race from ten different POVs and from six or seven cars. It is often surprising how an incident 'feels' and what actually happens.

[DLogan]

...I maintain that I clearly had the drop on Marco and he just failed to make allowances for me...

You got a better start, but WERE NOT AHEAD. If you had been ahead, there would have been no contact. You should have realized this, backed off, and got through the corner safely. You chose not to.

Marco should have known you were there, and either allowed you room beside or backed off and let you through and made it through the corner safely. He chose not to.

You both had the chance to get through safely. You both chose not to.

Yes, I'm upset at losing a lot of chances at having decent races this season (and not just in this division) for things which I feel people are not taking responsibility for, and the moderators are the ones who allow this to continue. And I'll be more than happy to share the replay of the VOR race (where Urban Anselmyr drove directly into the side of my car yet Bob didn't have a problem with it, or with Urban stopping in the middle of Tamburello ruining a qualifying session, or with Urban punting me over the armco at the start of another one) that ended my involvement with that league for anyone to review and comment on.

As for my view being "...completely at odds with reality..."? That's only because YOU know reality and no one else does, right? 

Paul: "...spend the hour reviewing the race from ten different POVs and from six or seven cars...". Did that, thanks (maybe not an hour, as it was only ten seconds of action that I was reviewing in this case).

[Phil Thornton]

I understand why Dean is annoyed about the incident at L'Eau Rouge.  Nothing is more frustrating than being taken out because of someone elses accident.  Could this incident have been avoided?  Yes it could by either:

1.  Doni staying in line and not overtaking.  The moderators have often discussed the idea of not allowing any overtaking until after T1 Lap 1.  We know some leagues have used this type of rule.  We've used rolling starts for the Sports Cars in order to try to reduce Lap 1 T1 incidents.  The concensus is that artificially preventing overtaking spoils the racing.  Getting a good start is all part of the skill, is more authentic and is really exciting and rewarding when you get it right.  So on that basis, this option is ruled out.

2.  Doni and Marco keeping to the edge of the track and not migrating towards the middle.  To be honest this is a common theme in many incidents in GPL.  Drivers tend not to give each other enough room. 

Dean's analysis of this incident is perfectly correct, Doni and Marco should have given each other more room but they chose not to.  Dean was also right to say Doni wasn't ahead.  He hadn't won the corner.  Doni and Marco were side by side when the incident occurred.

When an incident is clearly the fault of one of the drivers it is easy to apportion blame and award penalties, but in a 50:50 case what is the best thing to do?  Penalize both or penalize neither?  In the penalty guidelines for a side by side or an ambitious overtake we describe when it is the overtaking driver's fault and when it is the overtaken driver's fault.  But as you can see when it is 50:50 we choose to do nothing.  In most cases in open racing only the two protagonists will be affected.  Our view is that it is their own stupid fault and crashing out is punishment enough.  However at the start there is always a danger of a mass pile up and to discourage reckless driving at the start we tend to award an extra place penalty (see First Lap Incidents) where someone is deemed to be at fault.

The biggest problem with awarding penalties is that you can always punish the guilty but you cannot reinstate the innocent.  Unfortunately Dean was one of several innocent parties in this case, there is nothing the moderators can do to ameliorate that.

All the moderators can do is appeal to the drivers to treat each other with respect.  Whilst it may be asking too much to accept they have done something wrong, perhaps it is reasonable to expect drivers to admit they could have done more to prevent an incident.

[Doni Yourth]

I beg to differ, Phil...  And referring to involved parties as being stupid is treading on the thinnest ice.

Dean challenges 'my' version of reality.  Like there's more than one.  Laughable.

Are the following two screen shots fiction then?  They are taken at the same instant.  An instant before things went South.

The first is a rear view from Cookie's car.



Next, a high shot from Greg's perspective.  Provides a better view than from the cockpit.



Now are we to believe this to be a dead heat?  Am I imagining things?  No, clearly, car #14 is well ahead.  Is this not a clear pass?  In the resulting shunt between car #14 and #19, who is responsible party?  This is not side-by-side contact.  Marco's RF clipped my LR.

Shall we blame Greg for getting a lousy start and opening up the opportunity for me to spear right in the first place?  Kidding.    I saw him launch well but then heard his engine bog down and he faded.  This left me clear to move right around Marco and as is clear from the pix, Eau Rouge is MINE.  A whole host of factors are involved but stupidity isn't one of them.  At least, not on my part...

[Robert Fleurke]

Doni has a good start and gets alongside Marco towards Eau Rouge. Both go slightly to the middle, and together with a little warp/lag both make contact.



Doni, you didn't clear Marco. You both move to the middle of the racing line.



One frame later, as racereport suggested, a little warp/lag, and you both wreck. 50/50. You were both equally at fault.

And can we please move on now? 

[Phil Thornton]

I beg to differ, Phil...  And referring to involved parties as being stupid is treading on the thinnest ice.

I didn't call anyone stupid.  Take out the word stupid and the meaning of the sentence is the same if somewhat less forthright. 

The point I am making here is that there is a limit to what the moderators can rule on.  There has to be someone clearly at fault before a penalty is applied.  Otherwise we would be apportioning blame everytime there is contact however minor and everytime someone makes a move that means another driver has to adjust their line.  The moderators would be in danger of spending countless hours arguing over the minutiae of every incident however minor.

The fact is, as drivers we are all responsible for what happens on the track.  The moderators can take action against drivers who are persistently cause havoc but moderating is no substitute for gentlemanly conduct.

Now are we to believe this to be a dead heat?  Am I imagining things?  No, clearly, car #14 is well ahead.  Is this not a clear pass?  In the resulting shunt between car #14 and #19, who is responsible party?  This is not side-by-side contact.  Marco's RF clipped my LR.

I agree this is not a dead heat but it is not the real world either.  We have to drive within the limits of on-line racing.  For the reason I have cited above, in UKGPL a driver is deemed not to have finished an overtaking move until they are completely past their opponent.

This has been debated before.  Please have a look at the screenshots and explanation in this post.

is clear from the pix, Eau Rouge is MINE.

In terms of an advantage maybe, but according to our definitions at UKGPL it is not.  Until you are cleanly past the corner is still being contested.  Marco has not given up.  He is on the racing line and trying hard.  You are off the racing line and trying to go around him.

A whole host of factors are involved but stupidity isn't one of them.  At least, not on my part...

Sorry if my use of the word stupid has caused offence.  It was not my intention.  I'm not calling either you or Marco stupid.  You are both racing for position, that is a conscious decision you have both made.  You are both aware of each other (or at least you should be, you are both very experienced drivers) and chose to keep pushing. 

The lesson to be learnt here is that the moderators cannot be expected to apportion blame to one party or the other for every incident.  There are some situations, and this is one of them, where the drivers have to take responsibility for their actions.  If drivers insist they are always in the right and refuse to admit there is anything they could have done to avoid the incident we will never move on.

[Doni Yourth]

Robert & Phil:

Thanks for the input.  I'm astonished at the overhead images that Robert posted that indicate that I was not further ahead of Marco as I believed.  My replay cap show something quite different.  And from what I can make out, the server replay largely agrees with my own.  What I am to make of it?  Dunno...

Thanks for the link to the other screenies, Phil.  Interesting stuff.

Moving right along... 

[BadBlood]

Thanks for the input.  I'm astonished at the overhead images that Robert posted that indicate that I was not further ahead of Marco as I believed.  My replay cap show something quite different.  And from what I can make out, the server replay largely agrees with my own.  What I am to make of it?  Dunno...

Those overhead shots ARE from the server replay. That is EXACTLY what I meant about how an incident 'feels' and how it is. The overhead camera views are invaluable in judging these incidents.

[Doni Yourth]

Paul and/or Robert:

These camera views from Spa posted above by Robert are not standard.  At least not in my track directory.  Do you have a special cam file?

Gimme, gimme...svp.