UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Brands Hatch - Jun 15

[Robert Fleurke]

Mod report is up.

[Marco Mercaldo]

...............RACE INCIDENT   ?!?! .............(naturally)

[Robert Fleurke]

Bottom Straight, Clive has substantial overlap before turn in.



South Bank, both turn in, Clive has still substantial overlap.



South Bank, contact is made by collision boxes. Clive keeps the inside.

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/ambitious_overtake

Contested Overtake: Racing Incident -  The overtaking car had achieved a 50% or greater overlap but not 100% or greater at the point of turn-in and both drivers were in full control.

[Ronniepeterson]

At the risk of picking up more flak from other drivers this is my whole point about the moderation last season in particular.

I and others picked up penalties for doing the same when others are not being penalised? Again you can argue all you want about degree of overlap but it comes down to one driver taking the racing line and assuming he has the corner and another planting his car down the inside and assuming he has the corner and will be left enough room. As for rear end contact, are we now going to see some people getting off with that classic "he braked earlier than expected ".

I repeat, I'm not looking for Clive, Billy or anyone else for that matter to pick up penalties, but then why did I and others? Level playing field for all..... sorry, but it does not look like it from here.

One other thing, these overhead shots which the moderators seem to be increasingly relying on, can be completely misleading and are the least reliable indicator of responsibility for an incident, in my opinion.  I appreciate you look at an incident from all angles before making up your minds but less of these appearing on the forum to confirm what happened would be appreciated. I find them infuriating where for me they have led to a complete injustice in the past. Obviously if the majority disagree I look forward to seeing more of them. It is a democracy after all.

[Robert Fleurke]

At the risk of picking up more crap from other drivers this is my whole point about the moderation last season in particular. I and others picked up penalties for doing the same when others are not penalised?
I repeat, I'm not looking for Clive, Dean or anyone else for that matter to pick up penalties but then why should I??? Level playing field, I think not! One other thing these overhead shots which the moderators seem to be increasingly relying on do not show the whole picture of an incident and can be completely misleading in terms of responsibility for an incident, in my opinion.

Sorry you feel that way. It seems whatever the mods do, it's never good enough for you. Also, please point me to incidents you think you did the same and felt done wrong, just for my own research and checking where you come from!?

The overhead shots are a great tool to use combined with UKGPL guidelines and etiquette. I've watched the replay at all angles and cams, these shots are only used to show key moments. How much overlap is there and at what point, to clarify my report. It was a favour to Marco that I posted those screenshots.

Even though we look for as much consistency as possible, moderators do have their own style and might judge certain incidents (slightly) differently. We aren't perfect.

[Turkey Machine]

At the risk of picking up more flak from other drivers this is my whole point about the moderation last season in particular.

I and others picked up penalties for doing the same when others are not being penalised? Again you can argue all you want about degree of overlap but it comes down to one driver taking the racing line and assuming he has the corner and another planting his car down the inside and assuming he has the corner and will be left enough room. As for rear end contact, are we now going to see some people getting off with that classic "he braked earlier than expected ".

I repeat, I'm not looking for Clive, Billy or anyone else for that matter to pick up penalties, but then why did I and others? Level playing field for all..... sorry, but it does not look like it from here.

One other thing, these overhead shots which the moderators seem to be increasingly relying on, can be completely misleading and are the least reliable indicator of responsibility for an incident, in my opinion.  I appreciate you look at an incident from all angles before making up your minds but less of these appearing on the forum to confirm what happened would be appreciated. I find them infuriating where for me they have led to a complete injustice in the past. Obviously if the majority disagree I look forward to seeing more of them. It is a democracy after all.

FWIW, any overtake, be it virtual or real, requires compliance from all drivers involved. See the recent F1 race in Germany for textbook examples of this working and failing.

Historically, in my own experience (and cost) I've turned into the corner at a very far-gone Spa race when leading and somebody's attempted an overtake, yet it was classed as a racing incident. Again, overlap was key.

The normal view of drivers is not very forthcoming as to the overlap, but can be revealing as to the attempted line of the driver. The overhead view in this instance is useful in determining the size of the overlap.

[Ronniepeterson]

Sorry you feel that way. It seems whatever the mods do, it's never good enough for you. Also, please point me to incidents you think you did the same and felt done wrong, just for my own research and checking where you come from!?

Robert and anyone else who feels I am being unreasonable, please accept that I am just voicing an opinion and not refusing to listen to or even accept views to the contrary.

Your first statement, that the work of the modertors is never good enough for me, is a little disingenuous, as that is not what I think or am trying to say. But it does not mean that it cannot be better. Improvements to the moderation/penalty system would benefit all. I like to think its a democracy here at UKGPL and we must be allowed to air our opinions whether liked or not. For example I see elsewhere that loose grids are being thought of by the moderation team after the Brno race last night. This is something which I and others have had a moan about in the past on the forum. Maybe it will happen maybe it won't but at least its on the agenda and in my opinion would decrease incidents at the start of races.

As for past incidents I don't submit reports as a rule so don't have a collection to review and resubmit to you. To start describing incidents with other drivers who I simply don't have a problem racing with and stir up unnecessary bad feeling would be counter productive. But her is one for you as requested. The F2 race at Kyalami. Do I go for a gap that is not there as the moderation states or does the other driver with all four wheels off track rejoin onto the racing line, at racing speed, into my path? Ambitious overtake or bad rejoin, you tell me.

Notwithstanding that we should always look to improve if we can, I have no problem with the moderation/penalty system and/or moderators. I just want to see it applied in the same fashion to all drivers. Its just my opinion and I hope you and anyone else will continue to treat me no differently on track. As for comments on the forum I have developed a thick skin in the last couple of seasons so feel free to agree/disagree as necessary, it won't alter how I race with you.

[Piero Mercaldo]

I could make at least 10 examples demonstrating that if it were me instead of Evil would have been disqualified ..
Not by training I never took it too seriously, but here you have overcome ...

    Ciao

[BadBlood]

We do endeavour to moderate in a standardised way BUT each moderator brings his own style to the work. It is fairly easy to say "There are these examples where it was different...." but if you would list them it would help us achieve a more standard interpretation. In this particular incident Piero could have stayed wider (and probably should have) but wasn't careless but turned in very sharply. Clive kept narrow and could do little else except jam on the anchors.

You could penalise either driver or go with R/I. Given that Piero asks for no penalty (which implies R/I) and feels he is the victim the verdict seems pretty safe. I genuinely do not understand the irritation.

Both drivers could have done something different. If I was Clive I would not have put my car up the inside. If I was Piero I would have stayed wider. Either choice would have avoided the incident.

Can I point out that WE DO NOT WANT TO MOD ANYTHING! More co-operative driving by all drivers would lead to less incidents and less modding! It is more fun too.

[Robert Fleurke]

Thanks Paul.

Ray, I apologize for my first statement, will PM you.

[Marco Mercaldo]

I think, that was not a point of overtaking, evil would be long gone because the curve tightens at the end (with cold tires), it was more prudent to wait for the straight.   However thanks to all, and have good new season.

[BadBlood]

I agree that it wasn't necessarily the best place to stick your nose in but I would draw everybody's attention to the Etiquette section of the rules:

"If an overtaking driver has any part of their car beside another as they enter a corner, the driver being overtaken should not move across; they should give the overtaking car room and go through the corner side by side, or let them through into the corner and try to re-take them at the exit."

The point here is that Piero could have taken a wider line. And, as I have said, Clive could have backed out. Sometimes drivers have to compromise their own lap to ensure better racing. It would have been interesting if Clive had backed off AND Piero had stayed wide...