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  • S2767W Salzburgring: October 12, 2014
October 12, 2014, 10:35:34 PM +0100 - Salzburgring - UKGPL Season 27 (2014) Works Trophy (67)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Iestyn Davies
 Blue Moose Racing
Lotus 49 (Cosworth) F1 1967 2 +0.243
127.117mph
1 49:13.379
125.100mph
39 1:14.700
126.821mph
Firestone  
Tom van Ostade
 Antipasti Racing
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 9 +1.700
124.680mph
2 +39.608
123.445mph
39 1:15.881
124.847mph
Firestone  
GregT
 
Honda RA300 F1 1967 6 +1.513
124.987mph
3 +48.921
123.062mph
39 1:15.911
124.798mph
Firestone  
DLogan
 
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 10 +1.877
124.390mph
4 +49.429
123.041mph
39 1:15.751
125.062mph
Firestone  
AnGex
 Black Night Racing
Lotus 49 (Cosworth) F1 1967 11 +2.124
123.988mph
5 +1L
120.999mph
38 1:17.232
122.663mph
Firestone  
kinghiro
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 13 +3.076
122.462mph
6 +9.222
120.626mph
38 1:17.216
122.689mph
Goodyear  
AndyL
 
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 15 +3.803
121.322mph
7 +2L
118.346mph
37 1:18.577
120.564mph
Firestone  
Turkey Machine
 
BRM P115 F1 1967 12 +2.768
122.951mph
8 +18L
121.633mph
21 1:16.420
123.967mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Baab
 Team Baarf
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 7 +1.540
124.943mph
9 +22L
121.110mph
17 1:16.424
123.960mph
Disco
Firestone  
Doni Yourth
 Blue Moose Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 8 +1.619
124.813mph
10 +25L
121.486mph
14 1:16.352
124.077mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Ronniepeterson
 
Eagle T1G (Weslake 1967) F1 1967 1 1:14.283
127.533mph
12 +34L
121.059mph
5 1:15.860
124.882mph
Disco
Goodyear  
FullMetalGasket
 Black Night Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 14 +3.585
121.661mph
13 +15.261
116.514mph
5 1:17.792
121.780mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Robert Fleurke
 Antipasti Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 5 +1.484
125.035mph
14 +39L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Goodyear  
MagicArsouille
 
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 3 +0.541
126.611mph
15 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  
UKGPL 8
 
BRM P115 F1 1967 16 16 ---
---
Goodyear  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 4 +1.289
125.358mph
Excluded +30L
121.501mph
9 1:16.496
123.844mph
Disco
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

SUMMARY
Iestyn Davies drove a very steady race to win his first Works race of the season. Tommie van Ostade made up a lot of places to take second place with the final podium finish going to Gregory Taber. The race was marked by a lot of crashes, the vast majority being at the Östschleife and a couple at Semperit Kurve. Clearly this track is a lot trickier than it looks.


Server replay time: 0h01m03s

Schikane - 0h01m03s Practice remaining.
Ronnie Peterson cuts the corner at the Schikane on his way to setting the pole time.

There is no suggestion that Ronnie deliberately tried to cut the corner. The replay showed that he made a significant left turn of the wheel and the longitudinal acceleration data produced by GPL Replay Analyser does support the assertion that Ronnie made a serious attempt at making the Schikane. Having realised quite early on that he was going to run wide, Ronnie accelerates hard through the sand trap and so he doesn't loose any momentum or more significantly, time. Unintentional or not, the outcome is the same, the pole time was set by an illegal lap (see the rules on Rail Riding and Corner Cutting on the UKGPL web site). GPL does check for corner cutting but this facility is normally disabled for on-line racing because it can lead to false alarms caused by internet lag. Consequently any illegal qualifying laps will be counted by GPL when racing on-line. Trying to let drivers past at the start is not a good idea, it has been tried before. For drivers with a long enough memory the Monaco round of Division 1 in Season 14 had to be rerun because of a well intended but illadvised attempt to hand back an undeserved pole position.

Any driver who thinks they may have inadvertently gained an advantage by cutting a corner in qualifying should make a conscious effort to abort the lap. If they don't manage to do that then they may voluntarily elect to start from the pit lane. What they should not do is to try to give the place back by taking it easy at the start, this will invariably lead to confusion and more likely than not, crashes.

Ronnie did the right thing by starting the race at his normal pace but it would have been preferable if he had aborted his qualifying lap after he had bounced his way through the sand trap.


Server replay time: 0h01m23s

Lap 1 - Turn 3 - Gregory Taber and Robert Fleurke.
Gregory gets a good exit out of Semperit Kurve and is in a position to challenge Robert on the inside at turn 3. Gregory has achieved 50% overlap before the drivers turn-in (0h01m22s) but Robert hasn't seen him and he takes the normal racing line. Contact is made and Robert is punted off into the armco barrier ending his race. After a wobble, Gregory can continue but he has lost momentum and he loses ground to Axel and comes under pressure from Bob Whitwell.

Robert has no idea where Gregory is and consequently he doesn't leave him any room.

Greg makes a legitimate attempt at an overtake achieving over 50% overlap at turn-in but not the 100% to claim the corner outright. The wobble Greg experiences is probably down to the fact that he has two wheels on the grass as he tries to squeeze through the narrow gap left by Robert. This suggests Greg is not affected by the contact which appears to be limited to Robert's client implying there was some warp involved.

This has to go down as a racing incident (Contested Overtake - Scenario 1) but the incident could have been avoided if Robert had realised where Gregory was and left him a little more room. To be fair to Robert he was being attacked on both sides and the red Cooper of Bob Whitwell was clearly visible in his off-side mirrors which was probably the focus of Robert's attention. Even if Robert had left enough room there is no guarantee that warp would not have intervened anyway.

  • Racing incident

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 27 (2014) Works Trophy (67) - Salzburgring - Oct 12  (Read 6250 times)
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GregT
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 11:42:22 PM +0100 »

Why is my helmet pink? I have it set to white in GPL so you guys can see me better and my head doesn't get too hot from the sun. Smiley

When I first saw the picture, it reminded of Pink Floyd - The Wall movie. "HEY PINKIE, GET OFF THE LINE!"
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You know that some people are different
Now ain't that a crying shame
Now wouldn't it be a real drag if we were all the same

Savoy Brown
Tom van Ostade
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 02:00:17 AM +0100 »

It's a 3d helmet, which uses textures from the car folder and discards your helmet color setting. You can opt for the GPLEA 2d helmet version which uses the original 1998 Papyrus helmet settings, although I doubt you'll like it since it looks uglier Grin .

You can make your helmet white in the replay by going to your murasama car folder, usually C:\Sierra\GPL\cars\cars67\murasama. Backup the file 'h14helm.mip'. Copy 'h08helm.mip', and rename it to 'h14helm.mip'. Now fire up GPL and admire your new white helmet in the replay! Smiley .

To get starting number 8, which comes with a white helmet in GPLEA cars, you need to be the eleventh person to join the server. Last weekend, I managed just that. Come to think of it, I still haven't thanked you for letting me borrow your nice shiney white helmet in the race Grin .
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 05:27:23 PM +0100 »

Incident report submitted using LM2i

Server replay time: - 0h01m03s

Corner cutting on pole setting lap

The incident involved the following drivers:•Ronnie Peterson (Ronniepeterson)

LOL

End of the session, out on full tanks for the last few minutes to see how the car handles, run off track towards end of lap, surprised as anyone by the low 1.14 I set (my fastest lap I believe was a 1.15.01). I apologised in chat immediately before the start of the race to Iestyn and Tristan and anyone else reading for that matter.

What did you expect me to do at the time? Cause a mass pile up at the start by taking someone/everyone by surprise and pulling over? Instead I decided to not contest the run down to the first corner and allow Iestyn free access (to be honest he probably would have taken the lead from the start anyway). Tristan was missing from the grid so there was little I could do to allow him past at the start!

It was an honest mistake which I tried to correct as best I could and I fail to understand completely why this incident report is necessary?

Off track tactics have been used against me on more than one occasion in the past as I have mentioned before and at no time has anyone involved been penalised except the person who remained on track, namely me!!!!

I am stunned by this one to be honest but hardly surprised. I had hoped things had improved with the admin/moderation but it looks like I was wrong.
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2014, 06:35:42 PM +0100 »

Incident report submitted using LM2i

Server replay time: - 0h01m03s

Corner cutting on pole setting lap

The incident involved the following drivers:•Ronnie Peterson (Ronniepeterson)

LOL

End of the session, out on full tanks for the last few minutes to see how the car handles, run off track towards end of lap, surprised as anyone by the low 1.14 I set (my fastest lap I believe was a 1.15.01). I apologised in chat immediately before the start of the race to Iestyn and Tristan and anyone else reading for that matter.

What did you expect me to do at the time? Cause a mass pile up at the start by taking someone/everyone by surprise and pulling over? Instead I decided to not contest the run down to the first corner and allow Iestyn free access (to be honest he probably would have taken the lead from the start anyway). Tristan was missing from the grid so there was little I could do to allow him past at the start!

It was an honest mistake which I tried to correct as best I could and I fail to understand completely why this incident report is necessary?

Off track tactics have been used against me on more than one occasion in the past as I have mentioned before and at no time has anyone involved been penalised except the person who remained on track, namely me!!!!

I am stunned by this one to be honest but hardly surprised. I had hoped things had improved with the admin/moderation but it looks like I was wrong.

Ronnie,

'm the moderator and I reported the incident not a driver.  It is my job to apply the rules, I don't stand to benefit from it.  All I'm doing is trying to make sure everyone has fun.  Please use the court system to inform me in private of your side of the story.  I need to be in possession of all the facts and then I will moderate the incident.

Regards

Phil
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2014, 03:25:45 PM +0100 »

Re the pole lap: No advantage gained in the race from starting on pole and not aware I spoilt anyones race before my engine died?

In the spirit of a level playing field for all I look forward to the F2 race coming up at Falkenberg. A corner cutting feast and a tricky track to stay on at the best of times. This should provide endless hours of fun for the moderator who has to scrutinise every qualifying and race lap. Some guidance in the race post on the difference between someone going off track deliberately or by accident might be helpful.


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Doni Yourth
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« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2014, 05:34:11 PM +0100 »

Yes, Ray...  Falkenberg will be scored with many '64' laps.  I intend...as I do at courses like Solitude...to run as many clean laps as I can.  I regard it as a great personal challenge to achieve it.
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 11:42:23 PM +0100 »

Mod Report published.

Ray
The guidance on corner cutting has been in place for years.  You will find it here.  Whether it is accidental or not is irrelevant when determining if a corner has or has not been cut.  The same applies to whether or not someone is rejoining the track having gone wide, the outcome is the same; they have to rejoin carefully.

As far as the F2 moderation is concerned, I doubt the F2 moderator will look at every incident and certainly not every lap.  They may choose to highlight the rules about corner cutting in the race post. 

I choose to be as thorough as I can for the Works because it is the top division for UKGPL and tends to attract the drivers that take Sim Racing seriously.  They deserve to have the moderator take things seriously too.  Having said that I don't particularly enjoy spending hours reviewing races and trawling through reams of GPL Replay Analyzer data.  So any help I can get from the drivers identifying incidents and giving me feedback through the court system (which is private and hence helps to reduce the possibility of misunderstandings and arguments) is most welcome.

Incidentally, I happened to have checked Iestyn's race laps where the replay analyzer showed he had left the track (laps 5, 9, 13, 19, 26, 33 and 39). On none of these occasions had he cut the corner at the Schikane.  Admittedly, I haven't checked everyones laps but the ones that really count, like the pole time and the winners laps, have been checked.

If you have any complaints about the moderating of the Works this season you can submit an appeal to the Chief Moderator.  I can't comment about the other divisions, the moderators work very hard to be as fair as possible but the workload is so high they tend to only look at reported incidents.  That means we have to rely on the drivers to use the court system.  If drivers don't report the incidents then some people will "get away with it" which tends to introduce an air of inconsistency.

At the end of the day it all depends on what we, the drivers, want from UKGPL.  Personally I enjoy the challenge of a well organised race where drivers race hard but within the rules.  That means we have to have firm consistent race moderation.  I don't want to be part of a league where there are no rules and driving standards are no better that Saturday night pick up races for drunks who have just come back from the pub.

I'm happy to put in some effort to support the UKGPL I want to be part of, but that doesn't mean I want to spend hours moderating.  I'd much rather race.

Regards

Phil

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Tom van Ostade
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2014, 04:47:07 PM +0100 »

Thanks Phil for the moderation. For what it's worth, I think the ruling, and consequently the racing, is significantly more fair than at GPLRacer, where I also used to race often. Whilst the races at UKGPL have been getting more and more fair, I've been hit from behind twice in the last three races at GPLRacer, where due to time constraints there is less and less moderation. I guess that shows how good the moderation around here really is thumbup1 .
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 04:48:52 PM +0100 by Tom van Ostade » Logged

Tom van Ostade
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2014, 04:52:54 PM +0100 »

Yes, Ray...  Falkenberg will be scored with many '64' laps.  I intend...as I do at courses like Solitude...to run as many clean laps as I can.  I regard it as a great personal challenge to achieve it.

Apart from a win, I guess the most satisfying thing for me is to achieve 100 % on track laps during a race, even more so than a 2nd place perhaps. It indicates top level concentration for almost an hour straight, very rare for me  Grin
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2014, 11:58:54 PM +0100 »

You trickster Phil. Me appeal to the chief mod when I can't even bring myself to submit incident reports!
 
Anyway, I'm not complaining, just again seeking reassurance on the consistency of the application of the rules set out at the start of each season.

I am fully aware of the rule on off track excursions but question whether it has been implemented in the past with the same vigour shown on this occasion. For example 2013 in three of the "top  divsions" (Works, Pros, Historics), we raced at Dijon Prenois. We even ran this track the season before I think? Despite routine cutting of corners and off track lines taken by many if not all in qualifying and in the race, the rule which has been in place for years was not invoked once by the moderation team.

I just want to race as well and yes I take it seriously which is why I am taking the time to provide you with feedback as requested.

In response to Doni and Tom I agree with you both. As the proud owner of a few 100% on track race laps here at UKGPL I fully appreciate striving to achieve this goes a long way to not just finishing the race, but securing a good finishing position if not a podium or win.

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BadBlood
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2014, 01:45:40 PM +0100 »

You do have a point about the even-ness of the application of rules but it is not necessarily a problem. One thing that has always grated with drivers is that they are penalized for something that they feel someone else did in a.n.other race. However, that is a natural consequence of the different moderator 'styles'.

The moderating of a single series should be very consistent as it is one person but consistency across the whole season is not so - ahem - consistent.

Some series do have a lighter 'touch'.

Just for info and as a reminder: we look at the reported incidents and review every second of every car in the red zone. It is a minimum of half an hour for each race if there are no incidents; double that if anything happens and can be a lot more if anything is contentious.

When things are contentious we discuss it in the Mods forum and seek consensus - that does not mean we all agree necessarily.

Finally we review the output of the GPLRA report to look for obvious 'off-track' and resets.

The actual outcome can vary dependent upon the Mod involved but we do try to be fair and highly consistent in judgement of individual incidents. That does not vary by series. The level of penalty deemed appropriate can be different from Mod to mod though.

Hope that helps.

If you do appeal, I believe the Chief Mod is a fine upstanding chap who always appreciates wine at Christmas.... Wink
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 01:52:13 PM +0100 by BadBlood » Logged

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