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  • S28Pro Monaco: March 24, 2015
March 24, 2015, 10:36:51 PM +0000 - Monaco (1929-71) - UKGPL Season 28 (2015) Professionals Trophy (65)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
FullMetalGasket
 Black Night Racing
Honda RA272 F1 1965 1 1:27.989
79.971mph
1 49:14.075
78.605mph
33 1:28.350
79.644mph
Goodyear  
Iestyn Davies
 Blue Moose Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 4 +0.450
79.564mph
2 +4.644
78.482mph
33 1:27.663
80.268mph
Dunlop  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Brabham BT7 (Climax) F1 1965 9 +2.371
77.873mph
3 +43.147
77.474mph
33 1:29.595
78.537mph
Dunlop  
Robert Fleurke
 Antipasti Racing
BRM P261 (1965) F1 1965 2 +0.242
79.752mph
4 +44.859
77.430mph
33 1:28.682
79.346mph
Dunlop  
Doni Yourth
 Blue Moose Racing
BRM P261 (1965) F1 1965 6 +1.903
78.278mph
5 (+1) +1:00.470
77.029mph
33 1:29.881
78.288mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 Black Night Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 10 +2.832
77.477mph
6 +1:12.980
76.710mph
33 1:30.289
77.934mph
Dunlop  
DLogan
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 8 +2.188
78.031mph
7 +1:25.131
76.404mph
33 1:30.227
77.987mph
Goodyear  
Ronniepeterson
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 3 +0.351
79.653mph
8 +21L
77.852mph
12 1:28.942
79.114mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Arf Arf Arf
 Team Baarf
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 5 +1.191
78.903mph
9 +22L
76.590mph
11 1:30.129
78.072mph
Disco
Goodyear  
NHance
 Mountside Racing
Honda RA272 F1 1965 11 +2.868
77.447mph
10 +25L
74.107mph
8 1:31.669
76.761mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 7 +2.047
78.153mph
11 +33L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
60fps UKGPL 8
 
Brabham BT7 (Climax) F1 1965 12 12 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

SUMMARY
A brilliant flag to flag drive from Tim, winning in the Honda ahead of a hard charging Iestyn. Clive grabbed the final podium place in the little BT7, a superb performance in such an underpowered car. Robert recovered from a Senna moment at Portier to climb back up to fourth place.


Server replay time: 0h01m00s

Lap 1 - Saite Devote - Axel Cookie, Doni Yourth and Dean Logan
Axel makes a great start and gets along side Doni who is queued up behind Arf as the cars bunch up into Saite Devote. Axel has 100% overlap and keeps tight to the inside kerb. Doni takes the normal racing line and contact is made. Dean is caught up in the melee and is lucky to be able to continue after rolling over several times. Doni can carry on but Axel is out.

Dean did nothing wrong.

Axel did nothing wrong. He made a great move up the inside and kept close to the kerb.

Doni was careful not to rear end Arf but this made him vulnerable to an attack from Axel. Doni started on the left of the grid so he should have been aware of the possibility of a car moving up the inside and consequently he should have stayed left and given Axel room. Axel's car only appeared in Doni's in-car view after contact had been made but Axel disappeared from Doni's mirrors (replay time 0h00m54s) on the approach to Saite Devote. Doni should have noticed Axel's move but he was probably concentrating on the car in front. Given that Doni was distracted byArf, the extra place penalty for a red zone incident has been waived.


Server replay time: 0h01m41s

Lap 1 - Portier - Robert Fleurke and Ronnie Peterson
Robert is very keen to keep up with Tim and is pushing hard. He goes slightly wide at the right-hander after Virage de la Gare and even wider at Portier where he clips the wall. In contrast Ronnie keeps a very clean tight line through both corners and gets the power down early enabling him to pull along-side Robert as they exit Portier. Robert's encounter with the wall bounces him back into the track towards Ronnie and their rear wheels make contact. Robert spins but Ronnie can continue.

Robert made a mistake but he cannot be blamed for the contact.

Ronnie did nothing wrong. Thankfully the contact did not cost him much time and he continued unimpeded.

  • Racing incident

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1965
1:27.663
---
Iestyn Davies
Race
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965)March 24, 2015, 10:36:51 PM +0000
S28Pro
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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 28 (2015) Professionals Trophy (65) - Monaco - Mar 24  (Read 6450 times)
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DLogan
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 07:14:58 PM +0100 »

...the driver on pole blowing his engine on the start line and he does not even figure in the incident according to you guys?Huh?...

The "involved drivers" are selected by the person submitting the incident report, not the moderation team.



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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2015, 08:18:29 PM +0100 »

like the latest incident report for the 69x at Silverstone. The incident if you want to call it one was caused by the driver on pole blowing his engine on the start line and he does not even figure in the incident according to you guys?Huh?
I'm sorry but the evidence just keeps mounting up against the current moderation team with moderators and team mates often getting the benefit of the doubt unlike others.

I just wanted to shed some light on the fact that the 69x moderator is new to the team, and perhaps it is not fair to criticize the entire moderation team because one moderator is in training.


No problem Walter. If anything I welcome your presence on the moderation team as with the single exception of Paul I feel it certainly needs a shake up. I suspect that it is you being trained when in my opinion Paul and you need to be training the others, just my opinion as a driver.

Already I am being forced to defend myself this season with only 2 races gone in the various series. I have collected full penalty points where other drivers for the similar incidents have not, is that fair?

This biased moderation has been going on too long despite assurances that I was wrong and everything was okay. Please name me any other driver who has been moderated on three separate incidents in recent seasons which were not in the red zone and not even reported by anybody. In other words the hard pressed poor moderator took the time and effort to trawl through the replays to find them! For the record my problem with the moderation team has never been being reported or penalised at times. But is it a level playing field? Over several seasons now others have consistently been favoured and/or forgiven for identical incidents and worse still have been allowed to get away with rule breaking where there is no margin for discussion. I'm not the only driver who is being treated unfairly in my opinion but I am the only one speaking out and will continue to do so where I feel it is justified.

Dean, this incident occurred in the red zone. Assuming the moderators did not report this having looked at it then I assume either yourself or Piero felt so aggrieved about something that one of you reported it. If that is the case then please assume that "you guys" includes yourselves when it comes to the ability to review replays to determine all drivers involved. No offence to yourself or Piero intended, just an observation on my part.


« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 08:21:29 PM +0100 by Ronniepeterson » Logged
DLogan
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2015, 10:53:39 PM +0100 »

...Dean, this incident occurred in the red zone. Assuming the moderators did not report this...

Doesn't smell that way to me.

Quote
...just an observation on my part.

FWIW, my observation was that nobody did anything worthy of penalization. GPL has in the past decided that my engine deserved to explode on the grid (despite not exceeding even half revs), so even holding Iestyn at fault is a bit of a stretch.

An offset in the grid (so cars are not lined up directly behind the car in front) may have helped here.
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DLogan
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2015, 11:02:15 PM +0100 »

...this incident occurred in the red zone...

Oh, and moderators? Despite being involved in this incident (the Monaco one, not the Silverstone) which was quite plainly in the red zone and automatically under investigation, I never received an invitation to comment prior to moderation being published.
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 11:20:21 PM +0100 »

Ronnie

I think I'm the common denominator in the 3 things you have mentioned.  

1.  Last season I fully moderated the Works races so every incident was moderated.  That is why you were picked up for incidents that were not in the red zone and not reported by any other driver.  I wasn't picking on you I fully moderated all incidents.

2.  This season I'm moderating the 65 Pro series. I'm only moderating red zone and reported incidents this season.
In Round 1 moderated the start line incident you were involved in.  Gave you a penalty.
In Round 1 0h2m42s.  You clipped Doni on the right rear which probably contributed to his engine damage.  Wasn't reported so I didn't moderate it (can't be accused of picking on you there Wink)
In Round 2 moderated the incident at Portier.  Recognised some great driving on your part, very good line through corners - no penalty.

3.  On the mods forum I gave some advice to Walter regarding collecting all the facts on an incident.  It is better, although not necessary, to ask the drivers for their version of events that way there is less chance of missing something that may come to light in an appeal if there is one.  So for S28 69x R2, Walter is only asking for driver input, he has not published a moderator's report.  How do you know what Walter is thinking?  Why do you think you are being singled out?  You are keen to express your views on the public forum, so why not in incident report where you can say what you think about any other driver without causing arguments on the forum?  The moderator can take everyone's views into account without the need for any unpleasant public exchanges.


By biased moderating are you referring to the fact that we do not moderate all incidents.  I have to agree with you if that is what you are getting at.  However it all depends on the type of league the drivers want.  Personally I would like to see all incidents moderated as was the case several years ago.  But this is hard work and is not sustainable.  We do a lot more races now with lots of different mods so the league is run differently.  If we had no moderation at all the league would risk descending into a farce, with bad driving going unpunished which would spoil the racing for everyone.  So we have a compromise, we moderate red zone and reported incidents as a minimum.  Inevitably that means some drivers will get away with bad driving if they are not reported. That is the price we pay for making the moderating workload tolerable.  

So, if by biased moderating you mean:

Some drivers are allowed to get away with bad driving - then the answer is to report more incidents and less drivers will get away with bad driving.

I'm picking on you personally - I can assure you I'm not and the moderation of the Pro rounds this season shows that.

Inconsistency - we always try to apply the penalty guidelines fairly.   Anybody who thinks there has been a mistake can appeal to the Chief Mod.  He can check the penalty guidelines have been followed and amend a report where necessary.
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2015, 11:45:34 PM +0100 »

I don't believe that I ever received a notification on the T1, Lap01 melee.  I realize that it's under full moderation but c'mon...

Oh, and moderators? Despite being involved in this incident (the Monaco one, not the Silverstone) which was quite plainly in the red zone and automatically under investigation, I never received an invitation to comment prior to moderation being published.

Doni, Dean - yes you are right I didn't ask for driver input but you obviously realised there was an incident so there was nothing to stop you submitting an incident report and saving me the hassle of submitting one and asking for your opinion. 

I'm not going to get silly about this but surely you must realize that the moderators are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  There are complaints about being asked for driver input and then complaints about not being asked for driver input.  The discussion is descending into moderator bashing which isn't helpful.  Follow the rules, use the incident reporting system and submit an appeal to the Chief Moderator if the you think the penalty guidelines have not been followed.

Above all stop believing in a moderator conspiracy, there isn't one.  Why would there be?  Are you suggesting drivers want to be moderators so they can bend the rules so they can win?  Where is the fun in that?  The only advantage in being on the moderating team is that you get to select the tracks for the season.  Can't say it is sufficient compensation for all the hassle.

I object to the ruling as a lack of caution...not on my part...seems to be the root cause.  Sad
Repeating myself here but if you are not happy please submit an appeal to the Chief Mod in the form of a PM.
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Doni Yourth
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2015, 12:52:31 AM +0100 »

OK, Phil.  Thanks.  I will submit an appeal to the ruling on me.

And if we here in GPLand think that we are hard done by with bad-ass driving and moderation, you should see what happened to me and the resultant moderator's call in the March 26 Png Zandvoort race with the UKPnG.  It was put down to a 'racing incident'.  With the kind of reckless driving I was subjected to, it was like a Friday night pickup race.

I was #2 in the points there but I've vowed not to go back.  EVER!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 12:54:35 AM +0100 by Doni Yourth » Logged
Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2015, 08:42:09 AM +0100 »

Phil this has been going on for far longer than one or two seasons. As for being picked on for incidents not in the red zone and not reported, they have involved more than one member of the moderation team. This is not an indictment of you personally. I race in many series as do many others and come under the scrutiny of all the moderation team.  

You ask why I don't bother with the incident report system. Well moderations like this made me wonder if it was worth the effort. Lets see, it was my fault because I could not see in my mirrors backwards up a hill over a blind crest and all the cars that came over it could see a yellow flag warning them to slow down, but they don't and in any case the flag can be ignored by them because the moderator says so. Very fair and even handed awarding of penalty?

Ronnie's rejoins after the incident - he keeps tight to the left & all the following cars which got caught up in this really should have taken greater notice of the waved yellow flags. Ronnie did not noticeably pause to check the track was clear. The corner obscured the following cars from view but more care could have been taken.
 The following driver's are technically due a caution for failing to abide by yellow flags - but this report is long enough already.
•Ronniepeterson (Ronnie Peterson) — warning — Inconsiderate rejoin.

The serious point here is that if simple incontrovertible facts from my report are going to be ignored, then what is the point in making them? This is not the only reason and I have discussed these in depth previously with the moderation team and tried to move on. Lets hope the moderation team can as well.

Someone above made a good point which I and others have made before. Space out the starting grid. This rewards good qualifying pace and at least gives slow starters a chance to survive being hit from behind and fast starters a chance to pass without being blocked. On the subject of the start at Silverstone, Dean, I am not looking for the pole sitter to be penalised. I'm just pointing out that to ignore his involvement is strange.

Happy racing everyone.








« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 05:59:12 PM +0100 by Ronniepeterson » Logged
Phil Thornton
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 08:54:29 PM +0100 »

Ronnie

I think you are taking things a little too personally.  The incident you are referring to was a long time ago (Season 24 F2 Round 8).

Ronnie's rejoins after the incident - he keeps tight to the left & all the following cars which got caught up in this really should have taken greater notice of the waved yellow flags. Ronnie did not noticeably pause to check the track was clear. The corner obscured the following cars from view but more care could have been taken.
 The following driver's are technically due a caution for failing to abide by yellow flags - but this report is long enough already.
•Ronniepeterson (Ronnie Peterson) — warning — Inconsiderate rejoin.

You were only given a caution and a warning, not a penalty.  A lot of the argument at the time was with another driver (Hristo) not the moderators.  Using the incident reporting system would have prevented a lot of unnecessary unpleasant posts.  I don't have the replay to check but the ruling looks pretty fair.  The point of the moderation was to learn something.  Did you learn anything?  What was the statement "Allow sufficient room in contested situations" trying to say?  Does this help?

All I can say is don't take things personally, use the incident reporting system and try to learn from incidents.  It happens to everyone not just you.  I was involved in an incident in the 69x race at Silverstone. If I get criticised I won't be happy but I'll accept it and move on.  Will I learn something? Yes.  Will I bear a grudge? No.  

« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 08:56:01 PM +0100 by Phil Thornton » Logged
bernie
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2015, 10:03:56 PM +0100 »

Well said that man  Smiley
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2015, 07:20:00 AM +0100 »

Your response is worthy of a politician totally off point. You asked why I don't bother with the reporting system which I gave up on a long time ago. Hence why this incident is from around the time I stopped using it.  Instead of trying to change the subject deal with the actual incident I mentioned.

THIS IS TO DO WITH YELLOW FLAGS OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING!

I received a penalty point, fair enough but why not the drivers who flouted the flag. Did the rules not apply to everyone then?

If not then what about now? The reason I say now is that nothing has changed, in my opinion, over the course of the seasons. Bring it right up to date with the latest start line incident you have found at the Silverstone 69x race. Just as the moderation team did not see (pardon the pun) the yellow flags as relevant in the long lost incident above, so this time they do not consider the pole sitter who blew his engine on the start line worth asking what they thought about any start line incident?

No more to say here other than I cannot wait for the report and whats holding up the Works Stardust report  laugh


No more please. Lets just accept our difference of opinion off track but enjoy our racing on track.




« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 08:02:07 PM +0100 by Ronniepeterson » Logged
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