UKGPL Season 28 (2015) 69 Extra Trophy - Montjuich Park - Apr 19

[maddog]

Good to see some thoughts and opinions, as that's what a forum should be for.  A reminder here, that in the late 1960's, Grand Prix still started 3 and 4 abreast.  A strong sense of survival was used to prevent anatomical derangement.  Penalty points for the loss of arm or leg, were not generally needed. 

Not many here get Online to practice at each track, before a big race.  I think a practice race start or 2 could help decide which moves are safe to make.  It's important drivers doing this are friendly, so that mistakes can be made without anger.  There's more to discover by leaving the serious racing, for the big race.

By sounding so learned, it's probably my turn to cause chaos next!   

[Phil Thornton]

IMO the best solution is to have loose grids, rolling starts or no overtaking zones are too unrealistic.  I know we already have loose grids but it would appear they are not loose enough.  However, there are 2 problems with having very loose grids at Montjuich (and similar tracks).

1.  The drivers at the back will be out of sight of the flagman and will have to watch for the cars ahead to move.  Not a big issue IMO.
2.  The drivers at the back will get a longer run at T1 and will be travelling very fast when they hit the braking zone.  Might make the bunching at T1 even worse?

Loose grids are normally aimed at resolving T1 issues.  The crash here was at T2 not T1.  The cars had bunched up at T1.  So that surely means we need even looser grids.  We need to avoid bunching on the whole of  lap 1 not just T1.  Very loose grids will make qualifying even more important, not a bad thing.  I'm not saying we should have very loose grids at all tracks, just the problematic ones like Montjuich and Monaco.

The real problem is the track.  The first couple of corners are very slow and the armco prevents wreckage from clearing the track.  If we are going to carry on with this type of track we need very loose grids or very careful drivers.

[Ronniepeterson]

The loose grid sounds good to me. In addition please keep this series a single mixed ability full grid. Its what makes it fun for everyone.

[EvilClive]

hmmmmm.
Well despite being knocked out in far too many races recently, and not always through major error on my part. ( I take the philosophical view that that is part of racing at this level) I am not convinced that loose grids would have negated the recent problems.

Whenever I have sat on a very loose grid I see an opportunity to make some passes before T1, and I am sure that other racers will admit to the same.

The extra space between the cars means that, if I am not on the front row, there is an inviting gap where I can nail the start and maybe get the car launched and straightened up before the cars in front are up to speed. The wider spacing means that I can risk a banzai launch with space to bring the wheelspin under control.
Whereas, if the grid is very tight, common sense dictates that I need to move off straight ahead and under control because other cars are going to be close all around and the margin for error is small.

The  distance to T1, plus the severity of that corner, is also a major factor, as the faster drivers and those braver on cold tyres and brakes will go deeper into those first corners than other cars, thus compressing the field. There is always the risk of a midfield car totally missing the braking point anyway and skittling through the whole pack, but that has always been the case.

Personally I don't think that there is any substitute for drivers trying to curb their ambition on the first lap and, perhaps more importantly, recognising that you have made a mistake that will allow a car behind to either get alongside or make a passing attempt. Simply nailing the gas towards the next apex when you have just saved a half spin or run wide with 2 wheels on the grass or bouncing of the armco is really not too clever unless you absolutely know where every other car is.
From the point of view of the driver behind a competitor who makes an error at T1, or lap 1 whilst the pack is still condensed, there are decisions to be made.Hhe will see the car ahead lose momentum and the possibility of a pass, but on top of that he has to decide whether he  should go for it, or back off and risk being rear ended by the howling pack behind??

In short I feel that whatever we do in terms of looser grids or rolling starts or no overtaking zones ,  it is just skirting the real issue of limited driver awareness, both as a result of the blind spots in GPL and lack of peripheral awareness of all drivers.

Just my opinion and not necessarily any great help...

[Phil Thornton]

I understand what you mean about a tight grids making drivers more careful which is why I'm only suggesting very loose grids at the Montjuich/Monaco type of track.  Our standard loose grid helps to prevent incidents where drivers get a power slide off the line and slew across into each other but it still gives a driver a fighting chance of making up some places off the line.

The idea that a tight grid would make Montjuich safer isn't consistent with what happened here.  After T1, the cars were bunched up as if they had started on a tight grid.  The loose grid at the start helped stop a shunt at T1.  The pseudo tight grid after T1 caused the shunt at T2.

I agree with you about driver awareness but even the best drivers make mistakes.  Given that this circuit is lined with armco any crash is likely to block the track.  This incident happened because two cars where driving in very close company and they touched. The only way to avoid driving in very close company at the start is to have very loose grids IMO.

The next 69x race is at Monaco and we are going to have a repeat of this race unless we do something.  I suggest we do a few practice races with a very loose grid and see how it goes.

A very loose grid will make qualifying even more important.  But we are at Monaco after all, it isn't as if we're being unrealistic!

[DLogan]

...This incident happened because two cars where driving in very close company and they touched...

After one of them had driven into another car twice before T1, and then the wall, and then drove into another car, and only then did he manage to create the havoc that he'd invited four times previous by driving into yet another car. How would changing the grid change that?

...The loose grid at the start helped stop a shunt at T1...

There WAS a shunt at T1.

...A very loose grid will make...

No difference at all, IMO. With the grid we've been using at Monaco, half of the field is around the corner and completely out of sight of the flagman already (unless it's the grid that put positions 12 and back waaaaaay back before Tabac [letting that result stand was ridiculous, but that's a different subject]).

Blaming the grid layout is the same as saying the penalty system doesn't work.

Anyone else considering jumping the start intentionally (and duly serving the on-track penalty) to avoid as much of the lap 1 fracas as possible?

[maddog]

Gplracer have tackled this issue in a rather stark, Teutonic fashion.  Grid spacing is similar, but penalties for naughtiness are extreme.  Minimum and universal punishment seems to be rear of grid next race, and applied for the slightest touch of a wheel, or minor threat to tranquility.  When first adopted some drivers departed, and grids have remained thin.  Accidents are fewer, drivers are fewer, penalties extreme.

[Walter Conn]

It is interesting that similar stuff happens in real life racing also. The 2015 Indy car season was plagued with accidents in the first two races. I heard that Tony Kanaan spoke to other drivers about the issue, and he said that we must have a clean race for the fans. (Also, the teams' budgets have been depleted so front wings are in low supply.) It seemed to have worked because there was only one caution for four laps at Long Beach.  

[Phil Thornton]

There WAS a shunt at T1.

Yes I noticed that and you have a point but it didn't result in a mass pile up until T2.

You are absolutely right, if everyone drove carefully the incident probably wouldn't have happened.  And yes you are right again when you say the penalty system isn't deterring people.  But if we make the penalties more severe so what?  We will end up driving people away because they will get sick of being hassled by the moderators.  We already have a few drivers who don't use the court system and complain about the moderating process.  And they have a valid point, we all just want to enjoy the game not get lectured every race. 

All I am proposing is an alternative way of trying to avoid the inevitable at Monaco.  In hindsight this series was not the best for a new moderator to take on.  I would dearly like to see a clean race and for Walter to have an easy moderating job to do.  So far this series has been a nightmare to moderate.

[DLogan]

...You are absolutely right, if everyone drove carefully the incident probably wouldn't have happened...

From what I can see, everyone did drive carefully (except for one).

...And yes you are right again when you say the penalty system isn't deterring people...

I didn't say that. You did, by blaming the grid layout instead of the driver who, instead of being quite thankful for having avoided catastrophe in his four unnecessary contacts in the 1 1/2 corners of the race so far, carried on as he had been carrying on.

...But if we make the penalties more severe so what?  We will end up driving people away because they will get sick of being hassled by the moderators...

As opposed to driving people away because they only get to race 1 1/2 corners before being taken out by something they had nothing to do with, caused by someone who has repeatedly shown little awareness of other cars on the track. Maybe you should look at the last time we ran the 69X's at Montjuich: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=11502#event3527, or Monza from the same season: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=11529#event3528.

...All I am proposing is an alternative way of trying to avoid the inevitable at Monaco...

Please, keep the ideas coming. Maybe in this discussion someone will come up with something that might work.

All I'm saying is that the grid was not the problem at Montjuich, as T1 passed without major incident. Anything after T1 there has nothing to do with the grid, as the cars will be bunched up there no matter how far apart they start.

...So far this series has been a nightmare to moderate.

I wouldn't say that. Kyalami was fairly clean (what incidents there were had obvious culprits), and I pretty much moderated the Silverstone start fracas for him.

[GregT]

I don't mind loose grids. I think they're safer. When I can't see the flag, I just look at the car I can see farthest ahead of me and go when it moves. Stick us 30m apart and I'd bet on average there will be less lap 1 accidents.

[Phil Thornton]

Dean, Thank you for your well reasoned and measured reply.  I have to concede (without prejudicing any moderation) you are right.  Perhaps adopting a very loose grid amounts to ignoring rather than tackling the real problem.

[Robert Fleurke]

Maybe we also should avoid tracks with bottlenecks after the start in the future, especially with a division and mod with so much difference in performance carwise and driverwise...

Then again, it takes only one bad move to take out 5-10 cars after the start...or one stalling car at the front...therefore looser grids might not be the solution, but it surely makes the starts safer, no doubt...the cars are simple more spaced, so mathematically the chances are smaller they collide...

IMO people shouldn't take the start as the ultimate opportunity to make a pass, to make it 3 wide or changing lanes being not aware where other cars are...rather give than take after the start...personally I rather lose positions or give extra room on Lap 1 being safe, but I must admit I have it mostly easy being at the sharp end of the grids mostly, and I'm often rather lucky...

I am not having the solution, we just must work together and try to keep a cool head, avoiding incidents at all costs after the start...we must remember we are racing online and not having the field of view like in real life, and we can't race as close because of the internet/connections...

[AnGex]

Mostly I am with Dean, I do not see it like a problem with the grid or the track. See it like a problem with only one guy who spoil it for most of the other by making something like a beginners fault.

[Ronniepeterson]

  Me defending the driver in question who would have thought it Yeah it was a bad day at the office but then I have seen other drivers so far this season, including myself, getting it wrong early on. Also at least he has taken the trouble to apologise, which indicates he is aware of the effect it had on the race for some. Not everyone does so I applaud him.

Lots of excellent discussion on the pros and cons of loose grids. I'm for them.

However, even with a loose grid, I'm still not sure what is expected of a driver and everyone else on his side of the grid when the car directly ahead moves away far too slowly or worse still is stationary. Are they simply expected to sit tight and stay in line while the entire other side of the grid goes past for fear of causing a collision if they move off line? And who gets to move out first once the other side of the grid has gone by? The person at the front of the queue or the back?