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  • S2867W Albi: April 26, 2015
April 26, 2015, 09:36:15 PM +0100 - Albi (1959-80) - UKGPL Season 28 (2015) Works Trophy (67)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Iestyn Davies
 Blue Moose Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 2 +0.154
115.697mph
1 49:47.774
114.400mph
42 1:10.080
116.126mph
Goodyear  
Gismo
 
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 1 1:10.186
115.951mph
2 +6.560
114.149mph
42 1:10.527
115.390mph
Firestone  
DLogan
 
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 6 +0.555
115.041mph
3 +27.660
113.350mph
42 1:10.718
115.078mph
Goodyear  
Samb
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 8 +0.954
114.396mph
4 +1:13.486
111.654mph
42 1:11.652
113.578mph
Goodyear  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 12 +2.123
112.546mph
5 +1L
111.632mph
41 1:11.406
113.970mph
Firestone  
Robert Fleurke
 Antipasti Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 5 +0.542
115.062mph
6 +11.454
111.206mph
41 1:11.363
114.038mph
Goodyear  
GregT
 
Honda RA300 F1 1967 10 +1.064
114.219mph
7 +37.785
110.239mph
41 1:11.450
113.899mph
Firestone  
Doni Yourth
 Blue Moose Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 11 +2.102
112.579mph
8 +8L
111.080mph
34 1:12.207
112.705mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Phil Thornton
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 14 +3.818
109.969mph
9 +1:17.164
107.742mph
34 1:13.086
111.350mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Pelle_B
 TEAM-GTLDK
Honda RA300 F1 1967 9 +0.969
114.372mph
10 +41L
79.678mph
1 1:39.434
81.844mph
Disco
Firestone  
Ronniepeterson
 
Eagle T1G (Weslake 1967) F1 1967 3 +0.212
115.602mph
11 +42L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Goodyear  
Baab
 Team Baarf
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 4 +0.430
115.245mph
12
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Goodyear  
Arf Arf Arf
 Team Baarf
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 7 +0.824
114.605mph
13
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Goodyear  
Turkey Machine
 
Honda RA300 F1 1967 15 +5.354
107.733mph
14
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Firestone  
AnGex
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 13 +2.697
111.660mph
15
---
0 ---
---
accident
Goodyear  
9 UKGPL
 
Honda RA300 F1 1967 16 16 DNS ---
---
Firestone  

Moderator's Report

Ronnie started from P3 on the grid but his engine let go on the long straight having a big say in the outcome of the race. Iestyn takes the win & fastest lap, breaking Rob Fleurke's winning streak. Gismo finishes second from pole & 3rd place goes to Dean.
Thanks to those who filed reports.


Server replay time: 0h01m07s

Ronnie's engine fails on the back straight. Baab is caught out by the speed differential & runs into Ronnie, then its chaos. The following drivers are effected are out of the race; Ronnie, Baab, Arf, Turkey Machine & Andreas. Doni, Greg, Pelle & Rob are caught up but can continue. Dean manages to find a quick line through the mess. Jethro almost manages the same feat but the space his was aiming at is squeezed as Doni recovers. Nevertheless a more cautious approach would have been advisable & extended his race.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 28 (2015) Works Trophy (67) - Albi - Apr 26  (Read 5949 times)
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Doni Yourth
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2015, 03:07:44 PM +0100 »

Just had another peek at the server replay cap to try and determine the root cause of the mega-shunt.  Found it.

RAY!!!  YOU CRAZY BUGGER!  YOU DIDN'T WARM UP YOUR ENGINE ON THE GRID?!?!?!

Smiley

Just kiddin', Ray, but that's 99 times out of 100 a sure recipe for a blown mill.  With pro damage, it is absolutely imperative to get some heat into the motor before the green flag falls.  You were first onto the grid...I was 2nd...and from your cockpit view, it was apparent that you were just letting the engine tick over at idle.  From your cockpit, you can actually hear my BRM H-16 revving in the background, in fact.  I've found that I need to see at least 80°F on the gauge...I check via the F10 view...to have some hope of having the engine live.  Prior to any start, I have my mouse cursor hovering over the green button and the instant it comes lives, I'm on it to join as rapidly as possible and start a routine of running 1/2 to 2/3 the allowable revs.  In our Albi start, you were pegging the tacho needle to 10500 before the first corner and several more times through the twisties before...

The Weslake V-12 is a sweet unit but known to be a bit fragile in the first case.  Failing to warm that sucker is a virtual guarantee of an early blow up.

Hope this tip helps you...and others...in the future.
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2015, 03:49:39 PM +0100 »

Hi Doni. I have tried every which way with the Eagle in the past from excessive warming , gentle warming all the way to no warming on the start grid. But in my hands she always blows eventually. Last night was no warming and she let me down badly. Next up on the rota is gentle warming. I hear what your saying and will revise my rota to focus on at least some level of warming with her and will report back if I have any luck  Undecided

Sorry again to Bob and everyone else who got wrecked or damaged.
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maddog
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2015, 03:55:50 PM +0100 »

That sounds like a sensible tip, Doni.  For general interest, I'm one who blips the throttle on the startline.  It's not a boy racer thing, but go's with a let's have realistic racing theme.  Thoroughbred racing engines have racing spark plugs, and these tend to 'oil up' and stop working, if the combustion chamber remains offload for too long.  While GPL doesn't do fowled plugs, it can throw a rod some distance. cursing
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bernie
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« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2015, 04:48:15 PM +0100 »

Hi Doni. I have tried every which way with the Eagle in the past from excessive warming , gentle warming all the way to no warming on the start grid. But in my hands she always blows eventually. Last night was no warming and she let me down badly. Next up on the rota is gentle warming. I hear what your saying and will revise my rota to focus on at least some level of warming with her and will report back if I have any luck  Undecided

Sorry again to Bob and everyone else who got wrecked or damaged.

Sack whichever mechanic left his spanner inside  the cam box  Grin
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EvilClive
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« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2015, 06:46:01 PM +0100 »

Huh? This is the first time I have ever heard about warming the engine on the grid??!! Does anyone have any real knowledge about the way that GPL models ( or does not model) cold oil.

In all my years of GPL I have never even contemplated the need to warm an engine before a race. I do however take great care not to over rev an engine as the flag drops. It is far too easy to bang that red whizzy thing against the stop on the rev counter, when you cannot hear your own engine and you are intent on maximising your start. Maybe staying in 1st  gear for a few seconds too long instead of short shifting into 2nd to avoid wheelspin.   I would suspect that is where the damage is done, whilst your attention is focused on the battle for T1?
 
I would respectively suggest that over exuberance with the go pedal  in the first lap is more likely to blow an engine than some cold oil in the sump. Unless someone can convince me that GPL does actually model the damage done to a cold engine, I am not going to change my habit of sitting quietly on the grid composing myself and not worrying about the engine.
In all my races with the Honda, and its notoriously fragile engine, I never warmed it up, but you can bet your bippy that I watched the revs VERY carefully, not only off the grid but for the whole race, and especially on downshifts. I think my record will show that the number of engines lost was minimal and as far as I can recall, never on lap 1.

I would be very interested to hear if there is any evidence to show that warming the engine is important, or does it use precious fuel that you might want on the last lap???
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2015, 07:27:43 PM +0100 »

I do warm-up my engine to ~36°C = "handwarm" and since that I have the feeling it does not blow such easy.
My proof is when you have to s+r in a race and do not begin carefull until the temp is over 60°C it will blow up...
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2015, 07:49:59 PM +0100 »

In my experience not over-revving the engine when dropping the clutch / engaging first gear can help the little Eagle. I have not blown the engine through over-exuberance in so long that it becomes second nature when 1st is geared low enough to modulate the throttle. It's also why I chose the Hondola to battle with next to no practice as I had a setup I could trust from my previous excursion here in it, which also involved one D. Yourth early on.

As for my escapade, I'd have gotten away with it had Doni not slowed down to avoid the tin-top Ronnie Soak on his lid. I could not adequately predict Kaos' movements in the upside-down leagues, and clipping Doni was the end of mine when I went and attempted a WW2 barrel-roll in memoriam.

Still, could've been worse...
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2015, 09:00:21 PM +0100 »

Huh? This is the first time I have ever heard about warming the engine on the grid??!! Does anyone have any real knowledge about the way that GPL models ( or does not model) cold oil.

Thanks Clive. Whilst I am aware of the possible need to warm the engine I was beginning to feel like the village idiot.

You are also spot on when you mention not being able to hear your own engine in the initial heat of battle. I find this the biggest problem since I prefer to look at the track and not my rev counter. When practicing its a lot easier to hear whats going on engine wise. The other issue I have is the G27 paddle shifts which simply do not have the same feel as my old G25. I still have issues of missed up and downshifts. 

I'm glad this topic is proving of use to myself and others. Thanks.
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Robert Fleurke
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2015, 09:22:38 PM +0100 »

Personally I have never heard about this, warming up the engine to human blood temperature, and I'm not convinced either. Call me stubborn. Also hardly have blown up engines after start or early race, despite overreving at the start having a digital clutch, and despite my rough driving style considering revs and shifting...

I use little revs when I join the grid, only when the Flag comes up I rev it up, and hammer it when the Flag goes down...I guess I'm just lucky but it works for me...

Probably will blow up at the start of next race now Grin
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Doni Yourth
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2015, 11:44:37 PM +0100 »

Ever since I signed on with the UKGPL and the pro damage restriction of the GP67 cars, I've found it essential to warm the engine.  In other leagues where pro damage isn't dialed up, I can get away without the warming phase and not worry about the engine.  It's a sad fact that Papyrus set the cars to go to the grid with stone cold engines.  Surely it would have been dead easy to nominate some value around, say, 100°F or even 120°F when first dropped onto the grid.  Even a vigorous revving routine with that start value for 30 seconds would not overheat an engine before the off.

I'm reading where some of you take it easy in the opening for a good 1km or more but I have to ask why?  You want the engine warmed up for fear of blowing it, correct?  Well, then, why not use the 30 second window provided before the start by a timely grid drop and start warming up the old mill straight away?  I usually pussy-foot for the first bit, too, as even with 80°+F on the gauge, it's still far from operational temperature.

I occasionally lose an engine but I think that's more due to poor shifting technique with GPLShift a possible root cause.  I'm going to remove that software in the next day or three and see how things shake out.  I never speed shift...holding the throttle pedal to the floor while changing-up...but still register some in GPLRA.
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Iestyn Davies
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2015, 03:17:30 AM +0100 »

Almost nabbed pole, but couldn't quite at the flag. Start was good.. on the back straight, suddenly I saw no one behind, so I didn't force the issue into the hairpin, and waited for half way to guarantee points before trying to pass. Luckily, Peter went off just as we caught Greg, and thus I could be safe to the line (but still had a few mini-offs). Late on.. the exact same scenario as last time, lost a 1:09 at the penultimate corner Roll Eyes. Similar pace to last works race, but with Rob in a slower car, and no Tris or Attilio in a Ferrari, 1st instead of 4th. Race pace is more consistent now with a slightly improved setup.

As with everything, I guess moderation is best. Leaving the engine cold or flooring it until the flag drop are not great.. I've lost 2 engines on the start line from hitting full revs cold. Some warm up is probably best, but not overdone. I also think that a colder engine uses more fuel, so warming it up ASAP can help with that, along with the tyres for heat. Usually this is one of the areas that I find I can gain time on others, i.e. being able to go 'flat out' from the start as the grip level rises with tyre temp (having started so many races now), but usually it's tough to pass with so many cars around and hence best used when starting from pole.

Watched the replay.. I think it was the 5th speedshift in a row which sent it into a tizzy. The 1st-2nd shift was fine. It's understandable.. race start is hectic and there's a lot going on, cold tyres, cars all around. Time to try the G27 H-pattern? Wink

On that note.. I also blew my Brabham F2 engine in the exact same location tonight. This was with paddles.. the car took a beating in a multi car pile up after T1 a few laps prior. But the time I set.. 0.05 faster than with stick 11 days ago. Same at Snetterton, and faster with paddles at Zandvoort (almost got a huge overall pb, with 2 actual ones in Lotus and Ferrari). This exe trouble I'm having is letting me A/B test it with paddles in 36 fps, stick in 60. Speed is generally the same, but I'm noticing many more paddle speedshifts while I still remember how to get that sequence timed correctly (gear and lift, foot back down). Paddles also only took 1 hour to get used to again, and actually is starting to feel more intuitive than shifter already... I drove a much better race at oAo than at ukgpl Zandy..

Edit: On sounds.. setting it to 4 I think will cut out the roar of all the other engines (and might save some FPS). With 3 you then lose a sound you need (tyres sliding I think).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 03:22:18 AM +0100 by Iestyn Davies » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2015, 09:29:42 AM +0100 »

Ever since I signed on with the UKGPL and the pro damage restriction of the GP67 cars, I've found it essential to warm the engine.  In other leagues where pro damage isn't dialed up, I can get away without the warming phase and not worry about the engine.  It's a sad fact that Papyrus set the cars to go to the grid with stone cold engines.  Surely it would have been dead easy to nominate some value around, say, 100°F or even 120°F when first dropped onto the grid.  Even a vigorous revving routine with that start value for 30 seconds would not overheat an engine before the off.

I'm reading where some of you take it easy in the opening for a good 1km or more but I have to ask why?  You want the engine warmed up for fear of blowing it, correct?  Well, then, why not use the 30 second window provided before the start by a timely grid drop and start warming up the old mill straight away?  I usually pussy-foot for the first bit, too, as even with 80°+F on the gauge, it's still far from operational temperature.

I occasionally lose an engine but I think that's more due to poor shifting technique with GPLShift a possible root cause.  I'm going to remove that software in the next day or three and see how things shake out.  I never speed shift...holding the throttle pedal to the floor while changing-up...but still register some in GPLRA.

Interesting Doni... Although I am careful not to over rev the engine at the start, I would not say that I pussy foot the first lap. I will use 99% of revs on lap 1, just the same as I will for the rest of the race, and I find that I can be quicker thaa many drivers on cold tyres. Maybe because I have no fears about sliding a car through corners? My comment about short shifting of the grid, was only to avoid wheelspin and guarantee max acceleration, not to be "soft" on the engine.
I still have the original Papyrus manual that was packaged with the game back in 1998, and one of the big things in the driving tips is avoiding both wheelspin and locking of wheels to improve laptimes. So I try and keep the engine in the "power band" and although I short shift I do not bog down ( hopefully).

I am still perplexed about this idea that warming the engine has any imact on reliability, as I have played this game since 1998. I have never "warmed" an engine and the only time I blow one is when I am just too hamfooted and exceed the rev limit. I'll bet that I have had less than 5 engines blow on the grid in my whole sim racing career.

I wonder if those who do the warming thang, are actually convincing themselves that they are improving their chances simply because, by sheer chance the car remained intact for that race, but for other reasons than having warm oil off the grid.
i do not wish to seem dismissive of this idea, it's just that I have never heard of it before, I have never used this tactic and yet do not seem to have suffered from the lifetime of blown engines which I should have if you guys are correct???
As Iestyn says above he has lost engines off the grid by hitting full revs..when cold, I still suspect that it was hitting full revs, rather than being cold, that did the damage. We have to remember that GPL damage has a random element built in. Sometimes hitting 105% max revs will blow the engine first time, yet in another race you might do it 10 times and survive.

I guess the bottom line is "if it feels good , do it".

 I would however support Martin's view that engines revving on the grid add a note of realism to the starts. Wink
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Doni Yourth
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2015, 12:13:38 PM +0100 »

Some good discussion going on here and let's hope that we are all the better for it.  I notice over on SRMZ that Axel has started a thread re this topic and already there are members chiming in.  It's too early to gauge an overall pattern but it will interesting to see the progress.

As for sounds, I cheat.  Smiley  I'll be giving away a trade secret here...

Years ago, I took pole in an Eagle for an ADC race at the Salzburgring.  In dropping onto the grid for the start, I was shocked to find that all the other cars around me were next to completely drowning out the sound of my Weslake V-12.  It was most disconcerting.  I got a reasonable start but was utterly flummoxed by the other members' engine notes and I promptly shunted the car at the first hairpin.  No doubt whatsoever in my mind that it was due to the overwhelming bombardment of noise from the other engine notes.

Since that day, I've tuned my sound files for all the mods.  In the root GPL/Sounds folder, I have a sub-folder, 'half tones'.  There, I have sub-folders for each of the mods.  Contained, sub-folders named, 50%, 75%, 85% and 100%.  With some time, effort and diligence, I have, over the years, taken each chassis wav file and altered its volume by the values noted just above.  I rarely use the 50% files as that's just a bit too mild but typically use the 75% editions.  Here's how it works.  For any given race, for the chassis that I intend to use, I load the 100% file.  For all others, they will get the down-graded volume wav file.  And that holds even in mods like 69X where we have multiple Cosworth DFV powered cars BUT each chassis has its own dedicated wav file ident so I can happily pound away with MY Cossie screaming at revs and not be too bothered with others similar power units in my immediate vicinity.  I can still hear them but it's easy to pick out my own engine's note.  The only down-side of this is if other members chose exactly the same chassis that I run.  Then, each has the same volume.  Sadly, since up-grading my computer about 1-1/2 years ago, I haven't been able to get the very handy GPL Sounds programme to work so am stuck with older wav files.  It's a disappointment but livable.

Later today, I expect to enter the UKGPL PRO Division event at Clermont.  I'm pegged to be in the BRM P281.  It's wav file we be 100% volume.  All others will be 75%.  Anyone else using the BRM will come through to me at 100% but as I expect them to be miles behind me, it will not be of any consequence.  Wink

Edit: Corrected splellimg mistooks.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 12:18:34 PM +0100 by Doni Yourth » Logged
Robert Fleurke
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2015, 02:02:25 PM +0100 »

Anyone else using the BRM will come through to me at 100% but as I expect them to be miles behind me, it will not be of any consequence.  Wink

 Grin
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2015, 06:36:57 PM +0100 »

Time to try the G27 H-pattern? Wink

On sounds.. setting it to 4 I think will cut out the roar of all the other engines (and might save some FPS). With 3 you then lose a sound you need (tyres sliding I think).

To start using GPLshift for GPL would be a little hypocritical of me, so no.

However, thanks for this tip on the sound setting, which I will be trying.

Maybe the blown engine was not such a bad thing after all, as the exchange of all this information is much appreciated by all I hope.

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