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Author Topic: NoGrip Legacy TC Event 4: Budapest Twin race  (Read 215 times)
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Nappe1
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« on: April 11, 2019, 10:23:10 PM +0100 »

NoGrip Legacy TC Championship 2019
Budapest Varosliget twin race event
15th of April, 2019

Two short races in Varosliget, Budapest. Originally in ETCC in 1970, Nepliget Park track was used, but as it is not available for GTL, this is fine replacement.


Server info:
- Server Name: NoGrip Legacy TC Server
- Password: tc4ever


1st Race
Track: Varosliget Park, Budapest
Track download: *DOWNLOAD*

Allowed Classes: Division 1 classes.
  • up to 850cc.
  • 850 - 999cc.
Qualifying: 20 minutes, starts at 20:10 BST.
Race: Length 10 laps, starts at approx. 20:30  BST.
Scoring:
  • Both classes score points separately. Winner of each class receives 9 points, 2nd in each class receives 8 points and so on and so forth.
  • Overall winner of the race scores additional 1 point.
  • Start in a class where driver has not started yet in this season, scores automatically 3 additional points.


2nd Race
Track: Varosliget, Budapest
Track download: Same as in race 1.
Allowed Classes: Division 2 classes.
  • 1000 - 1299cc
  • 1300 - 1599cc
Qualifying: 20 minutes, starts approx 20:50 BST.
Race: Length 10 laps.
Scoring:
  • Both classes score points separately. Winner of each class receives 9 points, 2nd in each class receives 8 points and so on and so forth.
  • Overall winner of the race scores additional 1 point.
  • Start in a class where driver has not started yet in this season, scores automatically 3 additional points.


Notes
- Championship main thread, with calendar, cars, classes and other info: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=15414.0
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Nappe1
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2019, 07:35:07 PM +0100 »

Hi,
Server is now online for testing. Smiley
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Nappe1
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2019, 10:40:28 PM +0100 »

Test server offline.
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 05:33:52 AM +0100 »

Qualifying went OK but the race was terrible, somehow or other my race setup was screwed up. The car didn’t handle at all like my qualifying car - how I could make such a mess of something as simple as adding a few gallons of petrol to my qualifying setup I don’t know!  Shocked :: Huh I spun a number times and bounced like a pinball between the two barriers. So I quit in disgust and packed in for the night.
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 06:16:19 AM +0100 »

Race 1: private testing offline only with the 850 Abarth. Online I realized that I was far off the pace and spontaneously decided to switch the car to the 970 Mini.
No time for experiments - so I simply took the Monza setup and was quite happy. Big fun chasing Tony during the first half of the race.
Unfortunately he left after bumping me slightly which I didn't really notice (thought I lost the car). Rest of the race was uneventful right in the middle of nowhere.

Race2: Obviously it was difficult to change from the go-kart style driving in the Mini to the Bellet. Was completely unable to match my easy offline pb or 2:18.8 and
started from last spot to a race full of early exits. Could not avoid Mike who seemed to fight with a broken suspension in his Escort - sorry mate  Tongue and left after some offs
due to own suspension failure shortly afterwards.

Thanks Nappe for organizing. CU next time.  thumbup1
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2019, 12:07:32 PM +0100 »

Hi Nappi1, thanks for the Series, would you please let us know which version of Bruno you will be using on 29th  April only there are two versions available? Only with a 2 hour race need to do fuel consumption tests prior to the race.
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2019, 12:14:14 PM +0100 »

Practice:
Due some real life happenings I had very little time to practice this track, so I used about an hour trying to learn and find cars  for the races before qualifying. Only thing I knew before first qualifying that I had no clue. The track seemed to be hard to memorize and all cars I tested seemed to have troubles of their own. Mini 850 I enjoyed, but I was really slow. (2:38 something) Abarth 850 TC felt  different, but I was not much faster with it than Mini. The 970 S with 12" wheels would been fast if I would been super smooth. However my driving style was more like John Rhodes than Rauno Aaltonen, so the result was few spectacular spins with some bent metal for the guys at the pits. Cheesy I also test ran Div2 cars for the second race. Bellett was awesome, but I again I was quite slow in it and if something went wrong, it went waayyy more spectacular way than with 1275GT, so I decided to pick up the Mini hoping that I would be able to find acceptable setup for it in qualify.

Near end of the practice I decided to try the car which I left in Cooper 970 S package in latest update for the reasons which were never exactly clear even to myself; Car Number #135 is sort of non-works car: it has 10" wheels, 5 kg more weight, only 4 speed gearbox, smaller top speed due engine not revving as high as the others and around 10hp less power. So It should be clearly inferior against the other 1969 970 S'es. However here it felt very good car from the begin. Especially in last 3 corners it was amazing. I had to lift the throttle quite few times not to hit guys in front of me, as they were slowing down much much more.

Race 1:
Race 1 qualifying went ok. Not sure what could have been done, as I had so little experience with the car. In race I had some very enjoyable racing with Suti in few first laps and after I passed him, It was more or less trying to keep my position and watching back so that no one would get too close. Car ran beautifully, but in second half the 10" wheels heat problems quickly showed why 12" versions are cleary better in longer races. Result 4th in class was nevertheless more than I expected. Smiley

Race 2:
After Race 1 I consentrated so hard finding setup for the Mini, so that I forgot to activate the qualifying.  Grin Big thanks to Tony asking about when the Qualifying is about to start. Smiley

I did find okayish setup, based on fact that I was on par with Dominick. Of course, Minis were underdogs here and as there were more 1300cc class cars than 1600cc, I was not expecting score much of points. After race start I decided to try avoid collisions with others with almost all costs and ended up as last of the pack after the 2 corners. However as there was 4-5 cars closely following each other in front of me, I decided to follow and watch. This turned out to be pretty good tactic as there was quite few collisions and mistakes. Occasionally I had some good battles like with Bob few laps (he going wide first, then me spinning and then he going wide again) and after I started to pull small gap in front of him, I saw a glimpse of Dominick who had pulled quite lead early on the race. I had no pace however to catch him, so I concentrated to finish the race. When I arrived last time to final corner, I saw some smoke build up in corner and then I saw Domick and I thought "what on earth, why he had started to make donuts before finish line??". I did not realize that he really had had a spin. I was quite confused and drove to the finish with an easy throttle as I was not really sure if Dominick thought to be last and was having just fun with making donuts and I did not want to be the guy who sneaks from the background and steals the thunder.  angel

In the end, being 3rd in class as so many had gotten DNF. That was really big surprise. 


This was quite eventful event. Thanks for everyone joining. Smiley
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Nappe1
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 12:18:28 PM +0100 »

Hi Nappi1, thanks for the Series, would you please let us know which version of Bruno you will be using on 29th  April only there are two versions available? Only with a 2 hour race need to do fuel consumption tests prior to the race.

I will post the download tonight. It is 1965 layout, BUT I have done own variation which has slightly adjusted grip levels and additional parameter to make possible have a race that will last 2 hours, instead of predefined number of laps. Smiley

So the download will be different, instead of anything available right now.
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 04:51:06 PM +0100 »

Result_Race 1

Result_Race 2


Cool
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 04:54:20 PM +0100 »

Grats to the winners and podiums in both races and to Markus for some unbelievable times!!

2 races....2 complete disasters for me.

Race 1
I opted for the Mini, simply because I really struggle with front wheel drive boxes and wanted to learn how to drive them. For the first 5 laps I was quite pleased as I kept Geoffers and Nocatu in sight, just a couple of secs ahead. If their battle got too physical I might have inherited the lead??  Roll Eyes But they drove like perfect gentlemen ( unfortunately  Undecided ) and I was resigned to plodding behind in 3rd place. Bottom step of the podium would have been a terrific result for me in a Mini, but then the car decided otherwise and threw me sideways into the barriers???  Undecided   Bob and Salesman swarmed past and I recovered to chase them... until one of them got way out of shape at T1 and in trying to avoid things my car went bersek again??
Rolled in last I think  Sad

Race 2
Maybe reverting to a PROPER car with engine at the front and rear wheel drive would bring better fortune? Well not exactly!  Undecided
Lap 1 and a mistake put me back to last place, but the Escort 1300 I find very quick and I was soon picking off cars and climbing back up the field until....... the car through a hissy fit and spun me out again?? After 2 episodes of causing chaos and mayhem in front of other drivers I quit.

Some offline testing and investigation this morning has, maybe, tracked down the issue. My trusty old G25 has shown signs of wear and fatigue over recent months and in an effort to extend its life expectancy I have started using the shifter instead of the flappy paddles ( which had become suspect).
 That I think is where the problem lies. The microswitch on one paddle has become a hair trigger, plus it occasionally stays "ON". As a result a sudden or violent movement appears to confuse the controls and I get double downshift or upshift....this does nothing to improve car stability in corners!!

Apologies to anyone who thought that I was running with headlights or flashing angrily at them...I was angry, but not at them and I had not deliberately activated the headlights.

Birthday next week................I wonder if I can extract a G29 from the financial controller?
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2019, 06:12:26 PM +0100 »

Quite like this track, although it can bite if you get the line slightly wrong in a few places. Unfortunately I did get it wrong once in each race, second race it didn't matter, but in race 1 it did.

Race 1 was a great 850cc battle with Nocatu for the first few laps until I just managed to squeeze past approaching the park section. Opened up a couple of  seconds gap quite quickly but then Nocatu found some more pace & kept the gap stable. Then on lap 7 I ran wide into the park section & hit the straw bales stopping the car dead, Nocatu flew past & by the time I got going he was 7s up the road. The damage made the car a bit slower but I would never have caught up anyway in the remaining laps. Congrats to Markus on the race win & to Nocatu for winning the 850s.  clap clap

Race 2 was a fairly lonely affair after I recovered from nearly overshooting T1. Markus was away at the front in the TC Escort & equally I was well ahead of the rest of the rapidly diminishing field. One mistake came at T1 on the final lap when I ran wide, clouted the wall & spun the car, was well ahead of 3rd place so resumed with plenty of time to spare. Congrats once again to Markus, remarkable pace in both Escorts.   I Am Not Worthy
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2019, 10:12:34 PM +0100 »

Some great racing last night, I really enjoyed it.

First race was great, I knew I had some pace in the Abarth, which due to to its 5speed box has a slight advantage over the Mini. Qually was very close with Geoffers who could carry some serious speed through the corners. I made a great start, even passed a couple of the bigger cars thanks to the torquey engine. The first laps were very intense.
The fights with Geoffers were great, it's god knows how many years since I had such a close fight on track. At a certain moment I managed to get the medium right hander at the end of sector 2 really fast and put a second or so between me and Geoffers. Naturally, I got cocky and I managed to gooch the last corner, nearly put it in the wall and as a result we were side by side on the S/F straight with Clive behind us ready to attack at any moment. As we approached the first corner I thought I'd go for a Ricciardo and try to outbrake Geoffers. I nearly pulled a Verstappen however and almost run into Geoffers' side. Luckily his quick reflexes saved us both from further trouble.
He managed to go through the esses really fast and after some more side to side action he got ahead and stayed there for many laps. I tried to stay focused and pushed hoping I could reach him again by the end. Lap 7 and we both did our fastest laps, which were amazingly close, so I little by little I was getting nearer. Then Geoffers lost it in that fast right, some weird understeer there mate, so I was again in front.

Race 2 was equally good. I didn't do a good start here; the revs dropped and I was left with no torque so I lost a couple of places. Due to some mistakes from others I got back into third but I made a small mistake and roguk managed to pass me. The rest of the race was spent trying to get close to him. I pulled some good and clean laps and towards the end I was on his tail. He made a smallish mistake though so I was gifted third in the end. Tough luck mate, you deserved that third place. In retrospect I may have made some bad choices regarding the gearing of the Alfa. I'm afraid I run with long gears, it never occured to me to try something shorter in practice. Doesn't matter though, it was still great fun. Thanks for organizing Nappe and grats to all participants and finishers!
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2019, 11:04:00 AM +0100 »

On the one side, I´m glad to have won both races. On the other side I would be lucky if it was closer. The Escort worked really fine on this track, especially the small one. But a gap of 6 seconds in quali and 55 seconds after a 10 lap race is really a big gap.

I totally understand the idea of historic correct starting in two classes per division. But as we don`t have so many drivers it would be better to have only one class of a division per race allowed.  In the first race we had (I think) 6 drivers in the small and 8 in the bigger class. The two classes have completeley separate races with separate points. So everyone has only half the opponents he would have if we all raced in one class. And the chance for everyone for good fights would be twice as high.

In Brno there will be 2 divisions allowed. That means 4 classes. The chance of good wheel to wheel battles is not high if we have around 14 participants.

I have highest respect for Nappe for organizing this series. And as I said, I understand the point of historical correctness. But in my opinion we would have better races if we would all race against each other. This means allowing only one class of one division per race. But this is only my 2cts.
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2019, 11:38:04 AM +0100 »

It is possible, with the # of drivers in this series, to create a historically accurate championship. You just need to devise ways of restricting car usage.

In season 17, UKGTL ran a 1971 BSCC. https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=535&theme=5  
which contained (as far as possible) all the cars in all of the four classes. But we restricted car usage by means of a simple spreadsheet which all the drivers had access to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I7egPwfJnD3svMwKxFhsK633XLm8BLocdNuofsj2VKg/edit?usp=sharing

In Season 20, Geoffers has devised a 1983 ETCC series which will use the same basic elements. https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=657&theme=5

However even this does not guarantee close racing as it is the nature of such events when different classes compete at the same time. But on the plus side it does alleviate the struggle to deal with BOP issues as it prevents any one driver from constantly using the best car in each class. The driver has to consider which is the best car (and class) to use at which round, thereby introducing a strong strategic element to the series.
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2019, 09:32:41 PM +0100 »

Championship design, my ideas
It's all about what you want to be close; In this championship I have weighted the points system so that even in middle pack there would not be big differences in championship points. Cars inside the same class are really close and it is more about the equal drivers being getting in to different classes than cars having big balance problems. Then again, the points system as it is now, seems to make sure that there's always competition close to you no matter your position in championship results.

The Development info of Championship
My development spreadsheet can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IEEyhoNU-8KLYNqxy0FuC0oqtcN3pQ30U5ftX8MNgrw/edit?usp=sharing
  • In first tab there's planned races and how they distribute across the divisions. As you can see, each division has same amount of races, making sure that you have be good in all divisions to be able to win the overall championship.  I had few dozens versions before ending up with this system, including ones with single engine class races, but they were never really balanced and there were problems like 1600cc class and above having just 2 cars each.
  • In second tab you see the cars and their respectable Zolder lap time driven by keyboard activated AI as well as planned fuel consumption and drive ranges with full tank and default setup. The reason why I use AI to calibrate the performance is simple: I am very very very bad at driving rear wheel drive cars. AI drives the car always on same performance level. (Plus you get pretty okay AI for single player at the same time.)
  • In third page you'll see some planned points systems which partly did end up in championship. Some of them I scraped for a reason or another.


The result.
Designing championship is always a difficult task. Making decision about making the cars for the championship is revelation and big headache at the same time. First you do get cars that have wanted fuel range and wanted differences, but then again making every piece of puzzle to fit in gets more complicated. There's several championship systems that are sort of standard, like the geoffers 1963 WSC had; several classes but limited number of drives per class. Or the classic all car in one class and linear / non-linear points to all racers based on results. However, here I wanted to do something different. And to make sure that no class is less important than others, I wanted to map races so that each division would get almost same amount of races. As you can see, there's technically now 9 races in each division, but that is stirred up a bit by the shared endurance races, in which racer must choose about the class from many. I also wanted to have possibility to people to drive with same car if they want to. There used to be guys in mid pack who loved their cars and wanted to drive with same car just because they could not compete with other cars even in mid pack level. But as long as their favorite was in the grid they were there as well giving their best. I do understand the limit system balancing the top end more close, but in this particular case I decided to favor mid pack for balancing.

The Possible changes without making points system utter chaos
As I want keep the points system as it is (and changing points system in the middle of the season sounds really bad idea anyways), the only thing I can change, is the endurances. However, as I want to keep the all divisions equal, that means each endurance turning in to single division race so that each of three divisions have one endurance for itself. That will mean one Division 1 endurance race as well. As No one us probably wants lap old SPA with 850cc or 1000cc engines 2 hours straight and almost 4 hours in Nords with 850cc /1000cc cars might not be anyone's bread and butter either, that would mean Brno 2 hours being Division 1 Race. (Most likely that would also mean Nurburgring being Division 2 and Spa being Disivion 3 race.)

Does it bother anyone if we make change to championship that Brno 2 hours will be Division 1 Race?



and oh...
Here's more detail quote about how and why I do the car performance calibration as I do:
Quote
Reason why I started to validate the cars with AI is the fact that my own times can vary more than a second with the same car and same setup depending the day. I also tend to suck driving RWD cars, in which the difference between good and bad day can be even more. sometimes a lot more.

AI then again drives +-2 tenths of second all the time if there's no driver file associated to skin. To keep the times comparable to the (un)human (I mean fast Smiley )  online racers, the AI physics tweaks needs to be kept minimum. That means almost no extra grip for the AI in tyres, bit more aggressive up gear change profile and quite bit less aggressive down gear change profile than the default car have. Also, tweaking the default setup so that car reaches limiter "just" in biggest gear before the zolder first chicane, makes the AI drive pretty average in all original tracks. Of course you could then do the svm files for the Monza and Mondello, to make sure that those tracks get longer and shorter final gears for better gearing fit, but Zolder is quite average of original tracks though. Smiley

So, plusses of my system:
+ my own driving problems and the style differences to average online racer are avoided.
+ AI performs in wanted level in single player races when run in average track.
+ AI does not get extra gains over racer, but the hdc needs to be fine tuned without AI cheats.
+ possibility to optimize fuel consumption figures and fuel estimates pretty accurately.
+ very very close in performance car sets possible and even exact replicating real world car data. You have driver that can and wants drive all cars in exact same performance level. No matter time, day nor positions of the stars. And AI does not have feelings, hangovers, flues, etc. It's a machine! lol )

...and minuses:
- with more than single gearing per gear finding the optimal gearbox gets tedious and as there's more parameters than just the final gear, the average track logic does not work in here. So, basically requires single gearbox with multiple final gears.
- needs sometimes a lot of work and even more so, if the car is extraordinary. AI might seem to need a setup that's unplayable for human, in which case finding the compromise needs a lot of test cycles. Luckily so far I have found this only once.
- needs a lot of patience to watch AI go around the Zolder.
- did I mention the patience watching AI drive the zolder? Smiley I mean a lot. really. I have seen that track hundreds and hundreds of times.
- It does need quite bit experience able to see on each test lap, if the car is slow due some physics thing (missing torque, power or mechanical grip, or perhaps wrong default gear) or perhaps AI just changing lower gear too early or upping the gear too early. And that all comes with just doing the tweaking more.... (Read: watching more AI lapping the zolder around.)

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