Endurance Championship - Season 3, Round 4, Anderstorp - 16th July

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Perhaps the rules need to be more precise on what the pitlane really is - I bet we all assumed it was deliniated the lights at each end (and I expect so did Dave when the rules were drafted?).

As with the corner cutting, I always assumed that it was whatever the game permitted. We only altered this for corner cutting because it became clear that at some tracks, especially add ons, the game was not enforcing a reasonable set of conditions. Since this will be the last Endurance race at Anderstorp before GTR2 there doesn't seem a lot of point fretting about it.

If any of the add on tracks we're going to use in the remaining events (Jerez and Suzuka) have similar flaws, all it really needs is for somebody to say so, so that all competitors are on a level playing field.

Does Anderstorp in GTL suffer from the same 'flaw'?

[Mark J]

ps...i think we need a new smiley added for 'Can of worms being opened'   

[Simon Gymer]

Does Anderstorp in GTL suffer from the same 'flaw'?

No idea, but then we don't do pit stops in GTL so does it matter?

[Paul968]

If any of the add on tracks we're going to use in the remaining events (Jerez and Suzuka) have similar flaws, all it really needs is for somebody to say so, so that all competitors are on a level playing field.

Exactly, but that isn't what happened here is it, so why would anyone do any different next time? If you read the thread up to your post, you would assume that such a discovery doesn't need to be divulged as it is gained by extra preparation.

[Simon Gymer]

Seems like stating the obvious to me though Paul. Knowing where you can go fast or slow is found in the practice. Does one divulge being able to drive flat out in 6th round Turn 7 of Track A when no-one else is? I think not. You roll with the punches. Once people see you driving flat out in Turn 7 of Track A they will learn themselves for the next time.

Let's not clog up the already bloated rules with even more unncessary stuff.

Mark was right, this is a big can of worms we don't need to open.

[Paul968]

It wasn't at all obvious to me - you and Dave seem to be saying different things. He says that things will be OK at other tracks because people will report anomolies, but you seem to have a different view. I'd have thought people would like to know where they stand on this now it has come up, so it just needs a clear decision on the subject. If it's 'let the game decide and all is fair in love and racing' then fine. If not then the rules need to be more precise, either about the pitlane or requiring people to report such inconsistencies.

No skin off my nose at the moment since I rarely have time for sprint races, let alone pitstops, although as someone modding incidents I prefer the rules to be as precise as possible.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

It boils down to whether a discovery of what sounds like a flaw in the track modelling which allows you to get through a race faster than someone else should be shared in the spirit of sportsmanship. IMHO it should - but I'm not going to start making rules about it. If you read about such a 'flaw' in another forum you could easily assume that everyone else already knows about it and simply not mention it.

If any of the add on tracks we're going to use in the remaining events (Jerez and Suzuka) have similar flaws, all it really needs is for somebody to say so, so that all competitors are on a level playing field.

Exactly, but that isn't what happened here is it, so why would anyone do any different next time? If you read the thread up to your post, you would assume that such a discovery doesn't need to be divulged as it is gained by extra preparation.

I meant "all it really needs" in the context of avoiding another heated discussion like this one. If just one person can be bothered to test it and they choose take advantage instead of announcing it, that's their choice. If someone feels strongly that nobody should gain such an advantage, they're welcome to test the tracks for themselves and post once the race is announced so that everyone knows.

Does Anderstorp in GTL suffer from the same 'flaw'?

No idea, but then we don't do pit stops in GTL so does it matter?

We haven't done any endurance style races in the ladder yet but that doesn't mean we won't...

If it's 'let the game decide and all is fair in love and racing' then fine. If not then the rules need to be more precise, either about the pitlane or requiring people to report such inconsistencies.

As I've said many times on many topics before, the only pragmatic solution is to let the game be the final arbiter unless absolutely necessary for either practical or political reasons.

although as someone modding incidents I prefer the rules to be as precise possible.

As I've also said many times before, I believe that the number of rules should be kept to a pragmatic minimum, because the number of rules a driver can actually hold in their head and think about in the heat of a race is very limited. The rules currently say "Drivers shall at all times and in all sessions obey the pit lane speed limit", but that's there mostly to stop people acting like muppets in practice and qualifying sessions; we have no way to actually enforce the limit in a race anyway so the game has to be the final arbiter.

[Paul968]

Right, that wasn't the way I interpreted your post above - sorry. What you are saying is that there is no obligation to report but you could do it if you wanted to make sure nobody else could exploit it. Fair enough.

[Luis Branco]

I think knowing it will be possible to turn the pit limiter off sooner is quite different from taking a corner full speed in 6th gear. To do that you really have to work in your setup, rather then knowing you can take it flat out. You’ll need also to take the right line to be able to do it, knowing where to turn, braking, what speed you need to keep and where you can accelerate. Even with the same setup and using Hot Lap replays that won’t mean all drivers will do it the same way or with the same speed. It’s not that simple.

I do think to be best if all use the enter/exit lights/marks to set the pit limiter on and off, and thinking already in GTR2, which may have something similar to what now happens in Anderstorp.
This way everyone will race with the same expertise about track layout, which in fact as nothing to do with practice.

That being said, however, I don’t consider Simon to have unfair behaviour regarding the rpm limit off point in Anderstorp pit exit. Sure, Simon did take advantage of it and I probably was the most direct driver affected by it, but also if I didn’t threw my Track IR to the floor things might have been different, or not.

But bugs are bugs and we all must learn to race with them. Magny also as a big bug in the kerb just when entering the start/finishing straight. The kerb can force a car to a complete stop, just like if it stumbled to an invisible wall. Driver aware of that bug will take a line where they will never pass over the kerb in that point while another driver can fell into the trap. But this doesn’t mean the other drivers are exploiting any   anomaly/inconsistency in the track implementation. They are in fact avoiding it.

If the pit out lights/mark in Anderstorp is visually put much ahead from where it really is, turning the pit limit off sooner is indeed avoiding the anomaly/inconsistency rather then exploiting it.

But, to avoid any benefits regarding pit limit procedure, by those more committed with the game, my opinion is, as I said initially, to be best if all use the enter/exit lights/marks to set the pit limiter on and off.

[Simon Gymer]

It wasn't at all obvious to me - you and Dave seem to be saying different things.

Ok, let me just clarify the situation...

Dave is in charge of all the rules. What he says goes.

I am simply discussing the issue raised and expressing my opinion.

[Simon Gymer]

Does Anderstorp in GTL suffer from the same 'flaw'?

No is the answer. Seems you have to wait to the end of those dastardly tyres before taking off the limiter in GTL.

[greg130]

I have to be honest and admit that I have always taken the pit limiter off at the same point as Shark.  I discoverd it by pure accident as I always change to cockpit view asap to adjust the motec display.  What happens is the game wont let you change view until you are out of the pit limiter area, as soon as the tarmac changes at Anders you are out of the limiter zone.
To be honest guys I had always assumed that everyone did this at Anders, after all if you get it wrong you get a stop go impossed by the game.
Just my 2 pennies worth on the subject.

[mclaessen]

To be honest I didn't know about all this since I've never thought of trying it . I don't have a problem with people putting the pit limiter off before the lights as long as the game allows it.

And another thing. We have been racing for 3 seasons both in sprint cups as well as the Endurance championship and this was never subject to discussion. I really don't see why it should be now.

With GTR 2 coming (somewhere before christmas that is ) this is probably the last Endurance championship season using GTR. My opinion is that this discussion is just a waste of time. There is no way of checking it so it isn't really worth bothering

[FlyBri]

Always thought the lights signalled the end of the pit lane............Ask Montoya (canada 05')

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Always thought the lights signalled the end of the pit lane............Ask Montoya (canada 05')

He wasn't done for accelerating early though, he was done for going through the lights when they were red.