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  • L20ETCC Zolder: December 02, 2020
December 02, 2020, 08:42:00 PM +0000 - Zolder (1975-85) - UKGTL Season 20 1983 European Touring Cars
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Daz9
 
Rover Vitesse SD1 (#87006) GTC-TC-76 2 +0.364
89.501mph
1 1:08:44.813
85.319mph
38 1:43.777
89.241mph
Dunlop  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Alfa Romeo GTV6 (#85030) GTC-TC-76 1 1:43.111
89.817mph
2 +1L
82.832mph
37 1:43.404
89.563mph
Pirelli  
Erling G-P
 TEAM-GTLDK
Toyota Corolla Levin GT (#90073) GTC-TC-76 5 +4.573
86.003mph
3 +4.898
82.734mph
37 1:48.148
85.634mph
Dunlop  
Wiltshire Tony
 Toyland Racing
Rover Vitesse SD1 (#84021) GTC-TC-76 6 +5.566
85.217mph
4 +47.664
81.889mph
37 1:47.961
85.782mph
Dunlop  
Geoffers
 Kerb Crawlers
VW Golf GTi (#15) GTC-TC-76 10 +6.366
84.595mph
5 +1:00.367
81.641mph
37 1:49.332
84.707mph
Goodyear  
fpolicardi
 Team7
Jaguar XJS (#84001) GTC-TC-76 7 +5.768
85.059mph
6 +2L
80.558mph
36 1:49.059
84.919mph
Dunlop  
phspok
 Team Pseudo Racing
Ford Escort RS (#87074) GTC-TC-76 9 +5.925
84.937mph
7 +15L 23 1:48.380
85.451mph
unknown
Dunlop  
seniordan
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
MG Metro Turbo (#84061) GTC-TC-76 8 +5.820
85.019mph
8 +24L 14 1:47.425
86.210mph
fuel
Dunlop  
Dimitar Dulichki
 Turbo Racing
Rover Vitesse SD1 (#84020) GTC-TC-76 3 +0.566
89.327mph
9 +25L 13 1:44.351
88.750mph
unknown
Dunlop  
SpecialKS
 TEAM-GTLDK
Rover Vitesse SD1 (#84004) GTC-TC-76 4 +4.307
86.216mph
10 +32L 6 1:47.536
86.121mph
unknown
Dunlop  
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Author Topic: UKGTL Season 20 1983 European Touring Cars - Zolder - Dec 2  (Read 1221 times)
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Dimitar Dulichki
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2020, 11:22:19 AM +0000 »

Thanks to Geoffers for the great season.

Congrats to all of the Top 3 drivers. 
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seniordan
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2020, 05:02:06 PM +0000 »

HEADS UP

As becomes clear from the results table this driver had a big senior moment when he forgot to put some new fuel in the tank. I just couldn't make it to my pit so all I could do was quit in disgust. Liked the Metro better than expected as long as you don't touch the brakes and that's where the heads up comes in:

Dont even do as much as glance at the brakepedal and the back steps out uncontrollably. It frustrated me beyond words so I decided to take a look at the Metro's HDC file.
I think there is a  flaw there as it's the only frontwheel drive car in GTL where the figures for brake torque seemed to be turned around ! that is, the balance between  front and rear wheels is wrong. Here are the values for a number of known front drive cars.

Brake torque.

mini cooper s
front  1179.0
rear   1017.0

1970 mini 1275GT
front  1179.0
rear   967.0

Renault 5 GT
front 2800.0
rear  1700.0

Fiat 128
front 1550.0
rear  900.0

and finally the  Metro

Rover Metro
front 2040.0
rear  2400.0  !!

Turning these values around gives a much improved braking behaviour already but the  2040.0 for the rears should preferably be lowered to 1940.0 or1840.0

Interested to know what you guys think about a tweak like that.

I think we all agree that the ETTC83 was a series enjoyed by all and I hope we'll see another 83 season soon. Could we have some discussion on cars to be added to the grid ?
Triumph Dolomite  and VW Scirocco springs mind here but there must be more...
Might be interesting to do some testing.

Cheers, Dan

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Geoffers
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2020, 05:59:02 PM +0000 »

Interesting read Dan. Tony & I did adjust some braking parameters as the original Metro we downloaded was even more difficult to drive. But I don't know enough about what all the settings in the hdc file do to make too many changes.

Some other thoughts on the cars.

Rover, best car in its class.
Jaguar, needs to handle a little better to match the Rover.
BMW, also needs better handling & maybe a little more power.

Alfa GTV, far quicker than it should be, handling OK but too much power.
Metro, needs brakes sorting.
Renault, needs tyre wear sorting, a bit more power, bit less grip.

Toyota, no changes.
Escort, needs a little more power & better able to get it to the road.
Golf, this car is from a different modder to all the others & seriously lacks grip in comparison.

Maybe we could get Lasse (Nappe) to take a look at them & make some changes.
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Wiltshire Tony
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2020, 11:01:28 PM +0000 »

Thanks for the feedback Dan; a very interesting read.

One has to be very careful when "tweaking" .hdc data as often a change here can in-advertently effect some thing else unintended. Don't even mention tyre wear  Roll Eyes. We also have free time pressures so many things are a compromise.
But I take on board what you say and in hindsight perhaps we should have paid more attention to the Metro mod. And perhaps not have used the Alfa as it was way too quick. But it just fitted in with Geoffers scheme of recreating the 1983 ETCC so well.

We will try to use any cars/historic series suggested to us but taking an idea or suggestion to a full working race series requires a lot of steps and testing so some things won't always be possible. But we do listen. We are planning an 1986 ETCC series, and a 1976 BTSC series, both currently scheduled for Season 22.

Good news about the VW Scirocco as we start a new Monday night series using these cars  thumbup1
Details of which may be found here https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=1241&theme=5

December is the Month when we finalise all the race series for the next year and I have been busy getting all these ready for use. You may pm me for download details of the series your interested in or wait till I'm finished and send me a pm saying "All". I will then be able to send out a pm for all of the planned series.

Cheers

WT
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Dimitar Dulichki
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2020, 11:49:26 PM +0000 »

Great read Dan!

The brakes were the reason i totally get rid off the Metro. As you said it was very strange and inconvenient to drive the car.

I can't say which cars can be added to the roster because i am not competent on the cars years.  oops But I'll be more than happy to tell my opinion on which cars are fun to drive, as i don't understand much about physics. I have now big experience with different cars from the races here and the ones at Altbierbude. So if you guys need some advice - count me in.
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Daz9
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2020, 10:06:17 AM +0000 »

I felt the Alfa had an awful lot of grip as well as power to be honest Geoff when I drove it at Nords. The handling nature felt reasonable in its balance and reactions, but there was a lot of grip.

My other personal observations were....

The Jag is flat out the fastest car by a mile, but it corners like a supertanker so is slow in the twisty bits. Whether it should be able to match the Rover on the tracks that require better handling is a debateable point for sure, in my view it is a car that should only be able to shine on tracks that allow it to due to the nature of the vehicle.

The BMW felt like the worst of that group, but that may have been my inability to apply the correct setup. It was never stable for me at Spa.

The Rover was the easiest of the big cars to get a laptime out of on the tracks I tried it on, and was a good overall package. It could be made nice and stable with a relatively default setup, or with a few changes was possible to be made a more direct, but slightly less safe car, which rewarded on the stopwatch.

The Toyota was the only other car I drove. That felt a little too twitchy maybe, when it let go there seemed to be a very small window of opportunity to actually stop it spinning. I have actually driven one of these in the real world, only for a day of rallying though so not massively relevant. I felt it should have been a little easier to hold a slide from the rear in it though for sure. That could have also been setup related to be fair, as my setups are rarely any good.
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seniordan
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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2020, 10:50:58 AM +0000 »

Being the band of merry simracing men that we are I trust everyone to understand that my input merely serves the purpose of even more improving the racing experience we all enjoy so much. Absolutely no critical note intended and fully aware of the amount of work involved in putting up a new series for which an extra Thank you to Tony and Geoffers. I Am Not Worthy 
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Erling G-P
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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2020, 04:06:23 PM +0000 »

One of the most precision demanding circuits, with those poisonous kerbs, ready to flip your car at the slightest indiscretion.  Apart from the first stint, where I had fun chasing some of the faster cars, it was an uninteresting and lonely race - only other car I saw after the first stint, was Daz lapping me.  Had expected Clive to lap me also, so very surprised to find myself less than 5 secs behind him at the end. Had I known, I would have tried to push harder (but probably wouldn't have changed anything).  Grats to Daz & Clive

Surprised also to have won a couple of the divisions & the overall. Probably would have looked different, if not for some tactical car choices and late entries from some of our current aliens.  Btw Tony, I believe your winners announcement for Div. 3 is in disagreement with the results table.  Grats to Daz for winning Div3, and to the runners up in all classes.

Dan: Shame about the fuel at your pit stop. If the pit windows aren't very narrow, I always try to plan my stops so that I have at least one more lap worth of fuel left - that way I can do another lap for a 2nd attempt, if I for some reason fail to add fuel.  Apologies also for early braking that apparently caused you to spin behind me. Tony was a little early on the brakes, so I had to be even earlier, to make sure I didn't hit him.

Thanks to all involved in setting the series up.  It's probably correct that some of the cars could do with a little tweaking, but I believe it's important that they're still different, so that you have to think about which car you use where - if they all handle and go equally fast, it doesn't matter which one you use.

Daz: Based on your lap times and results, I'd say your setups are more than adequate...  Wink
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Wiltshire Tony
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2020, 06:48:46 PM +0000 »

  Btw Tony, I believe your winners announcement for Div. 3 is in disagreement with the results table. 
Oops  Embarrassed Now corrected
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2020, 07:15:55 PM +0000 »

Sorry for being a bit late  Roll Eyes

Result

Cool
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SpecialKS
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Wiltshire Tony
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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2020, 01:56:00 AM +0000 »

Sorry for being a bit late  Roll Eyes

Result

Cool
Thanks Kurt  thumbup1
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Daz9
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2020, 11:32:26 PM +0000 »


Thanks to all involved in setting the series up.  It's probably correct that some of the cars could do with a little tweaking, but I believe it's important that they're still different, so that you have to think about which car you use where - if they all handle and go equally fast, it doesn't matter which one you use.

Daz: Based on your lap times and results, I'd say your setups are more than adequate...  Wink

That is a very good point Erling, the cars should maintain their distinct characters, and strengths and weaknesses that go with them. It's better for the racing that they are closer in laptimes of course......

As for my setups, they are normally a little edgy to say the least, just ask Dom....That can give decent one lap pace at times, but causes as many problems as it solves in a lot of races over the years, and I've got used to driving quite worn tires in that time...It usually means I'm not as consistent as I would like, but I'm usually grinning at my own antics.
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EvilClive
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« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2020, 12:12:41 PM +0000 »

I concur 100% with Erling in that the attraction of this type of series is the differences in the cars, and their handling.

I am not famous for my pre race preparations and car selection vs circuit, but I do agree that the differences in the cars allow for careful selection.

I got lucky with my random selections in a couple of rounds. At Zeltweg I dragged that Jag XJS onto the tarmac and somehow cobbled a half decent setup together that allowed me to use the awesome straight line speed. OK so it destroyed tyres faster than an F1 pitcrew could change the wheels, but it was immense fun!!
Then, at Zolder, I only had the Alfa left to use ( or the BMW, but I had tried that somewhere before and recalled it feeling heavy and slow ).

With some tweaks between the car groups this series might have been even closer. The Alfa was fast enough to compete against the big bangers on any circuit with enough corners. The Metro was by general consensus of opinion almost undriveable, although one or two found a way to make it fly ( Dan's input on the brake balance would fit with how I found the car, but i don't know enough about the physics ).

If we run something similar in the future, and as far as the car groupings are concerned ...vive la difference!!!!  Wink
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