UKGTL Season 21 1964 British Saloon Car Champ. - Silverstone - Jun 9

[EvilClive]

Grats to the podiums and class winners.
This sort of series is what I really enjoy, a grid of vastly different cars and performance options.

However, despite discovering that I might actually be somewhere near the required pace in the Alfa to be competitive in it's class, my fun was interrupted in both races by what I suspect are hardware gremlins. At least I sincerely hope that gremlins are the issue and not me!!! lol

Grats to the Flying Falcon's Circus display at the front, they were just so much faster than everything else on track....kind of wish I had opted for some V8 power  .

[Hristo Itchov]

Awesome battles with Dimitar and had a lot of fun joining him on the stream once again, even though apparently it didn't record my voice. It was hilarious at times going wheel to wheel and chatting about it at the same time. Dealing with traffic in race 2 and the way the final few corners on the last lap unfolded brought in some additional excitement!

[Erling G-P]

Just tried the setup Matt has graciously shared with me.   His final drive is one notch taller than mine, the most obvious difference.  However, I'm only marginally quicker with it, my best being 1:51.266, compared to my fastest race lap of 1:51.570 (both setups with race fuel).

At a complete loss as to how he gains 3+ seconds - in all the corners I'm at the limit of adhesion; any quicker and I run wide. Brake as late as I can to still get the power down early - in most sharper turns, I'm on full throttle well before the apex. With the perfect lap, I could maybe gain a couple of 10th's, but 3 seconds... 

Even tried his car, to see if there was some hidden difference between them, but they're exactly the same. So in this case it's clearly not the setup, but rather the driving abilities of Matt (henceforth known as the JaaaagMaster) making the difference 

[phspok]

  I was not particular fast at Snetters, so it's not talent.
I think it was just at this track I could boot it out of the corners better than usual
with a bit of power drift.

Have a look at the replay, perhaps you will see some difference?

[Geoffers]

Just reading Erling's posts about the Jag, & not wishing to decry Matt's excellent performance, it did get me thinking. This is a race we did many years ago at Silverstone 70s.

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8784#event2235

This was with the 4.2 Jag Mk2, as you can see Matt is nearly as quick in the car you are using here as Navin & I were in the 4.2. Now I know that car used in this series is not the standard GTL Jag, but as I understand it is not the 4.2 one either, correct me if I am wrong Tony. Also at Aintree Hristo was much much faster than DD in the same car, now I know Hristo is quick but so is DD & the 4-5s gap between them did not seem right. Is it possible that some previous installation of the 4.2 Jag has somehow made the one used in this series faster?

[Erling G-P]

That's a very interesting theory Geoff. Tried the old download links to see if there were cars overlapping the 3.8s we used, but the links are dead.

Matt:  Looked at the replay (again..  ).  You're braking later into T1 and upshifting earlier than me in places, so seemingly carrying more speed through the corners.  If I try that though, I fly off into oblivion.  Will have another go later and see if I can squeeze the lemon a little more, but can't conceivable see myself gaining 3+ secs.

[Hristo Itchov]

Just reading Erling's posts about the Jag, & not wishing to decry Matt's excellent performance, it did get me thinking. This is a race we did many years ago at Silverstone 70s.

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8784#event2235

This was with the 4.2 Jag Mk2, as you can see Matt is nearly as quick in the car you are using here as Navin & I were in the 4.2. Now I know that car used in this series is not the standard GTL Jag, but as I understand it is not the 4.2 one either, correct me if I am wrong Tony. Also at Aintree Hristo was much much faster than DD in the same car, now I know Hristo is quick but so is DD & the 4-5s gap between them did not seem right. Is it possible that some previous installation of the 4.2 Jag has somehow made the one used in this series faster?

I thought the same back at Aintree, Geoff, but then I decided to try DD's car and could extract the same pace out of it. The Jag is very particular in the way it has to be driven, constantly 4 wheel drifting it with a controlled amount of throttle without excessive wheelspin or sliding, keeping the revs at optimum range, otherwise it quickly loses a lot of time during acceleration and down the straights.

I remember the key thing at Aintree was NOT braking too late (though obviously you do need late braking for the slow corners), but rather rotating the car as early as possible. Nothing new, I know, but it was especially important with such a heavy car (similar to the Mustangs at Surfers). From watching DD's video of his 2 races back then, he was just not early and aggressive enough under throttle, keeping it too straight. Likewise for everyone else in the same car from what I could see.

You have to drive the Jag in a similar style that is used with the 60s F1 cars in GPL, keeping it at an angle but always moving forward and not so much sideways.

[phspok]

Happy to accept a power bonus from old installs
But, because I didn't know which of my (Southport) installs was the right one to use for this event
I asked Tony for a fresh link for the D/L and unzipped it onto a fresh GTL install with no other mods

Perhaps an older install conflicted and slowed things?

[Erling G-P]

Perhaps an older install conflicted and slowed things?

I doubt it - I think it's clearly a case of you being much better at driving it the way Hristo describes.  I'll try again, but don't think I can get the car to behave like that and still maintain control.

[Geoffers]

Happy to accept a power bonus from old installs
But, because I didn't know which of my (Southport) installs was the right one to use for this event
I asked Tony for a fresh link for the D/L and unzipped it onto a fresh GTL install with no other mods

OK, if it was a fresh install then I guess it is unlikely that my theory would hold water.

[Hristo Itchov]

Perhaps an older install conflicted and slowed things?

I doubt it - I think it's clearly a case of you being much better at driving it the way Hristo describes.  I'll try again, but don't think I can get the car to behave like that and still maintain control.

Just give it a go beyond your comfort zone, Erling. I mean, you have nothing to use in practice, so just experiment with throwing the car around and it will eventually click. Once you take a corner the right way, you'd know what to go for.

TBH at Silverstone DD was quicker than me overall and in practice in particular. It turned out that I was using too short gears and even though it felt like I was going very fast, the lap times didn't reflect it. So sometimes it's down to the setup as well.

[Hristo Itchov]

Decided to try the Jaguar MK II 3.8 around Silverstone, using my Aintree setup. Had to change the gears one click shorter, but otherwise it felt OK, with perhaps the braking bias a bit too rearward. Managed a 1:46.4 with some small mistakes here and there.

I've uploaded the replay and setup, if you want to have a look and give it a try, Erling:

https://we.tl/t-OVLviMmXWv

[Erling G-P]

Decided to try the Jaguar MK II 3.8 around Silverstone, using my Aintree setup. Had to change the gears one click shorter, but otherwise it felt OK, with perhaps the braking bias a bit too rearward. Managed a 1:46.4 with some small mistakes here and there.

I've uploaded the replay and setup, if you want to have a look and give it a try, Erling:

https://we.tl/t-OVLviMmXWv

Thanks Hristo; I'll take a look and give it a go when I get a chance.  I think your laptime confirms that Matt really is rather bloody fast in this car!! 

[Erling G-P]

Just did another 60+ laps of Silverstone with Hristo's setup.  The short version is I just can't do it!   Simply don't posess the driving skills to extract the most from this and similar cars.  Am at loss about what to do with wheels and pedals to achieve the smooth drift required - all I get is either run wide understeer, or, in the rare cases I get the rear to break loose, a speed sapping power slide.  Frequently the car would also oscillate between over- and understeer through a corner.  At no point did I ever reach the speeds visible in Hristo's hotlap - car remains a sluggish barge when I drive it.

Ran without auto clutch. Normally that gets me into trouble, but the Jag is so sluggish it didn't here.  After 30+ laps, I finally knocked 0.4 secs off my earlier pb, with a 1:50.6.  After 40 laps, another measly 0.2 secs, for a 1:50.4.  In various earlier laps I saw sector improvements which, if I could have combined them all, would have given me a total improvement of 1 sec, for a 1:50 lap; still a far cry off the laps of Matt & Hristo.  The two laps in question were merely lucky flukes, rather than aha-moments from doing something decidedly different.

Hristo, puzzled about the very high tyre pressures in your setup - even at the lowest 250 setting, I was unable to get even temps across the tyres with my own setup, the middle always being hottest.  With the higher pressures in yours, the difference is even greater, but I expect there must be a reason for it?

[Hristo Itchov]

Just did another 60+ laps of Silverstone with Hristo's setup.  The short version is I just can't do it!   Simply don't posess the driving skills to extract the most from this and similar cars.  Am at loss about what to do with wheels and pedals to achieve the smooth drift required - all I get is either run wide understeer, or, in the rare cases I get the rear to break loose, a speed sapping power slide.  Frequently the car would also oscillate between over- and understeer through a corner.  At no point did I ever reach the speeds visible in Hristo's hotlap - car remains a sluggish barge when I drive it.

Ran without auto clutch. Normally that gets me into trouble, but the Jag is so sluggish it didn't here.  After 30+ laps, I finally knocked 0.4 secs off my earlier pb, with a 1:50.6.  After 40 laps, another measly 0.2 secs, for a 1:50.4.  In various earlier laps I saw sector improvements which, if I could have combined them all, would have given me a total improvement of 1 sec, for a 1:50 lap; still a far cry off the laps of Matt & Hristo.  The two laps in question were merely lucky flukes, rather than aha-moments from doing something decidedly different.

Hristo, puzzled about the very high tyre pressures in your setup - even at the lowest 250 setting, I was unable to get even temps across the tyres with my own setup, the middle always being hottest.  With the higher pressures in yours, the difference is even greater, but I expect there must be a reason for it?

Could it be that you're using the wrong car somehow? There's no way you're 3-4 seconds slower than us, considering we've had close battles on other tracks. Can you upload the replay of your hotlap so I can have a look?

As for the tyre pressures, I had them high for Aintree to achieve better top speed and didn't bother changing them for my trial run here. I've also noticed the middle going higher, but if it's the way you say and lowering pressures doesn't help with that, it's probably better to just keep them slightly higher to go faster on the straights.