UKGTR NGT Sprint Masters - Valencia GP - Oct 31

[Truetom]

TT, I've no idea why you think the TVR was faster on the straights. Sitting behind you I can assure you it wasn't. I was really good under braking and out the first part of the corners but on the straights I had no chance of passing you.

So, to flip around: if you had no chance of passing me on the s/f line then I should have EVERY chance of passing you. Easily. But I couldn't. 

TT

[Mark J]

agree Dave, i dont think it was the ballast either, as i also ran with the ballast the night before. It seems to be this track though as i noticed it alot on the previous fun race here. I turned up on race night thinking i had good pace and decent setups from previous practise only to find they didnt work at all well. An odd one  

As for the ballast, yes maybe 50kg is a full fuel load, but thats ontop of a full fuel load already in race trim !  Do you not agree that tyres are going to suffer serious wear with all that extra weight, particularly in endurance? Drivers in TVR's and Nissans will be able to scamper home with non existent tyre wear as they are -??kg making them perfect for the enduro events. Has ballast effects been tested for longer distances?
Like i say, i'm not critisicing as i like the idea of a bigger variety of cars on track but i dont want to be in the situation where i will not want to drive my favoured car because its un-competitive. An alien may be still able to drag it around in a reasonable time but more mortal drivers like myself will just be pushed further down the race order.

I thought we were originally intending to use ballast to slow down the aliens anyway? Thats where we needed to make the racing closer, so that the rest of us feel we have a chance on race night.

I'm sure the ballast debate will go on and on, just wanted to raise a concern or two.

[Simon Gymer]

Sorry, Shark, simply not true.    I was in your slipstream and couldn't even get alongside you. You can talk about a lousy corner exit all you want but I was inside your slipstream for half the s/f line and no go. 

TT

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I was running lower wing too to keep up on the straights, were you running full wing? There are many factors involved, skill, car setup, driving style etc.

Not suprised your tyres were off, my experience of the 911 is that it eats tyres.

I think we need to give the pack more time at different types of circuit to see what is where. Valencia is very twisty and suits the slower cars anyway as they are more nimble. I bet I couldn't get half as close at somewhere like Barcelona or Anderstorp.

[picnic]

Sorry, Shark, simply not true.    I was in your slipstream and couldn't even get alongside you. You can talk about a lousy corner exit all you want but I was inside your slipstream for half the s/f line and no go. 

Because we introduce a weight ballast to the cars it's SRou who's at fault. Perhaps Shark had a better setup here in the TVR, perhaps Shark is a better driver, perhaps we've got the weights wrong, perahps 10 degress track difference would have changed things. Could Shark have got passed you if the positions had been reversed? What will be the effect at Monza? It's just easier to blame the ballast isn't it. Interesting to see that to about 1 tenth of a second your lap times in qual and race were identical

[Truetom]

I was running 9 wing - 8 had too much loose rear a consequence. I agree there were more factors involved and to see the behaviour through more races. It's hardly possible to decide after one event.    On to Brno, then.  

I agree, Picnic, lets wait and see.    The work put into ballast pack was considerable, lets give it a chance.   

TT

[Simon Gymer]

Would be good to see TT and Mark do compartive testing at Valencia with ballast of the cars they feel are not matched anymore. (If you have time)
The more data we have the better the pack can be adjusted come the skin pack update.

[Aagramn]

I thought we were originally intending to use ballast to slow down the aliens anyway? Thats where we needed to make the racing closer, so that the rest of us feel we have a chance on race night.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no practical way to give individual drivers ballast. GTR2 just won't let us do it.

Thought the ballast pack was a big improvement over the unballasted fun races for the NGT class, where there were only 2 competitive cars (M3 & RSR). The idea is to let people drive the cars they enjoy and to and race them competitively. Felt my 12th place in the M3 was a pretty fair reflection of my ability.

[Mark J]

My concern was with the tyre wear rate from the now heavier cars and the fact that we've taken the racing characteristics out of certain car models.  Are you saying my take on physics is wrong? because for all my years of watching motorsport, its been heavy cars that cane their tyres harder than a light car  
We also have to take on more fuel to make it the finish line, i'm guessing the lighter cars can take less?

If i wanted to sim drive a fat car i would drive a Vauxhall monaro or something similar, but i dont, i bought GTR2 because i want to sim race my favourite car, the Porsche with all its racing pedigree and idio-syncracies against other guys online in sleek Ferrarirs or nimble Morgans etc. I didnt want a fat guy sat in the back seat so someone in a slower make of car can catch me.

As expected this post has degenerated because some of you guys take any issue raised as a personal attack when its not. Re-read my posts and i said i wasnt bitching, just asking the question.
Hey ho, wanted to keep it friendly, i'll shut up and sit quietly at the back.

[Simon Gymer]

I was running 9 wing - 8 had too much loose rear a consequence.

I was running 8 (possibly 7 in the race to help on the straights), so one less than you.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

As for the ballast, yes maybe 50kg is a full fuel load, but thats ontop of a full fuel load already in race trim !   Do you not agree that tyres are going to suffer serious wear with all that extra weight, particularly in endurance? Drivers in TVR's and Nissans will be able to scamper home with non existent tyre wear as they are -??kg making them perfect for the enduro events. Has ballast effects been tested for longer distances?

Lots of people ran full fuel in Endurance last season in order to avoid having to refuel at the stop - if the extra weight caused that much wear they wouldn't have ben able to do that. 50kg is less than 5% of the vehicle's dry weight - I dare say track temperature makes much more difference. Based on my wear from last night and from earlier test races I could probably just about stretch mediums out to 75-80 minutes but they'd be bald by the end - it's not a strategy I plan to try!

I've said repeatedly that the ballast pack is very much an experiment, and we know we'll have to make some adjustments come mid-season when we've got some good real world data to back us up. Have I done any Endurance-length testing? No. Will the grids on Sunday be full of TVRs and Nissans and Veritslows? Er... no. I think I can safely predict that. In fact I'm hoping a few GT2s turn out so we can see what it's like when it has to stop of a tankerfull of fuel in Endurance.

Finally, to anyone who thinks the 911 has lots of midcorner and initial power understeer, you'd be right. It does. And? That's realism for you, the direct result of putting the engine in such a silly place.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

I ran 7 wing in the race last night (8 in qually) to ensure I could just about keep up with the TVRs. The 360s had a slight edge but not enough to slipstream past; in fact, even up behind a TVR I wasn't getting much of a tow at all.

[Zacari]

My concern was with the tyre wear rate from the now heavier cars and the fact that we've taken the racing characteristics out of certain car models.  Are you saying my take on physics is wrong? because for all my years of watching motorsport, its been heavy cars that cane their tyres harder than a light car  
We also have to take on more fuel to make it the finish line, i'm guessing the lighter cars can take less?

If i wanted to sim drive a fat car i would drive a Vauxhall monaro or something similar, but i dont, i bought GTR2 because i want to sim race my favourite car, the Porsche with all its racing pedigree and idio-syncracies against other guys online in sleek Ferrarirs or nimble Morgans etc. I didnt want a fat guy sat in the back seat so someone in a slower make of car can catch me.

As expected this post has degenerated because some of you guys take any issue raised as a personal attack when its not. Re-read my posts and i said i wasnt bitching, just asking the question.
Hey ho, wanted to keep it friendly, i'll shut up and sit quietly at the back.

You're not driving a 'fat' car, you're driving one that's been ballasted to be equal with the competition as best as the game allows.  The tyer wear effect is negligable, it's very easy to test though:  Set up a practice session using 6x tyer wear and test the unballasted car followed by the ballasted one, checking the wear number after each stint.  do 3-5 tests and average the results and I'm willing to bet the numbers will be very similar.  Driving style will have more effect on the wear than the ballast.

[Mark J]

I've said repeatedly that the ballast pack is very much an experiment,

i know, thats why i said i'm just raising concerns not bitching about it  
But your still missing my point in that whatever fuel we choose to run in endurance, we've now already had the equivalent of a full tank bolted onto the car...and i'm guessing we will be limited in what strategy we can decide upon because of that

Finally, to anyone who thinks the 911 has lots of midcorner and initial power understeer, you'd be right. It does. And? That's realism for you, the direct result of putting the engine in such a silly place.

True, but it now has even more of that midcorner understeer but has less power to weight ratio to power drive out of the corners...a Porsche strength ! and one that has done it pretty well over 30 years of motorsport  

[Aagramn]

My concern was with the tyre wear rate from the now heavier cars and the fact that we've taken the racing characteristics out of certain car models.  Are you saying my take on physics is wrong? because for all my years of watching motorsport, its been heavy cars that cane their tyres harder than a light car  

Did anyone say that? Yes, the extra weight should affect tyre wear (unless the GTR2 physics doesn't calculate this properly, might check this with PD monitor). It's possible that the current ballast values will need tweaking to account for wear rates, difficult to say at the moment. It should be checked. I took a heavy BMW on soft tyres at both Doni and Valencia, and I didn't think increased tyre wear was a big problem. Hardly conclusive though.

If i wanted to sim drive a fat car i would drive a Vauxhall monaro or something similar, but i dont, i bought GTR2 because i want to sim race my favourite car, the Porsche with all its racing pedigree and idio-syncracies against other guys online in sleek Ferrarirs or nimble Morgans etc. I didnt want a fat guy sat in the back seat so someone in a slower make of car can catch me.

And I'd like to race cars I can enjoy competitively, and I think the ballast pack will help me do that. I'm not convinced the ballast has radically changed the driving characteristics of any of the cars. Suggest you try it offline at a couple other tracks - Valencia is a bit of a pig.

As expected this post has degenerated because some of you guys take any issue raised as a personal attack when its not. Re-read my posts and i said i wasnt bitching, just asking the question.
Hey ho, wanted to keep it friendly, i'll shut up and sit quietly at the back.

I wasn't offended, what made you think that? As I've said before, there is nothing wrong with people posting their opinions. What does sometimes irritate me is the "you must be an idiot if you don't agree with me" attitude that I occasionally come across (fortunately there is a lot less of it on this forum than most).

It's impossible to please everyone all of the time. I'm just glad it's Dave who makes these decisions and not me. I'd probably get fed-up with it and decide it's not worth the hassle.

[Simon Gymer]

we've now already had the equivalent of a full tank bolted onto the car...and i'm guessing we will be limited in what strategy we can decide upon because of that

So a bit like someone driving the Mosler in GTR1 then as that uses 35% more fuel than the other cars anyway.