UKGTR Season 4 Sprint GT - Monza (GP) - Jan 30

[Kerr]

I don't get this new rule. I suggest sticking with the original rules and don't make any special exceptions at all

Whilst there are places at Monza where you can gain time from this, you can't gain as much as you'd think, and if you're hopping the curbs (and especially the yellow and black blocks) regularly, sooner or later you are going to get a warning from the game... and/or plant the cars firmly into the barriers or the gravel (or both).

I'm not sure on that.

On the second chicane i have found i loose 1 sec per lap  there as I follow the track and others drive through it. Some have the technique and it works every lap where as my set up often lands me in the wall! I can't master it at all but it's hard watching people gain an unfair advantage just tempts you to do it too. They obviously are not getting penalties either

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

I gave up racing in our Danish GTR2 league recently after finding out just how much people were corner cutting on Imola. I'm not going to race online on that track again ever. 

The rule was only introduced because of Imola and I've made it perfectly clear already that this is a one-off situation and that we will revisit the whole issue once we've got Monza out of the way.

On the second chicane i have found i loose 1 sec per lap  there as I follow the track and others drive through it. Some have the technique and it works every lap where as my set up often lands me in the wall! I can't master it at all but it's hard watching people gain an unfair advantage just tempts you to do it too. They obviously are not getting penalties either

That's tantamount to suggesting that we change the rule because you're not very good at setting the car up. Some people aren't very good at hopping curbs because they set the car up too stiff, but nobody has asked us to change the rules so that the curbs are out of bounds.

[Mark J]

At the risk of sticking my neck on the block , i would also disagree with letting people 'cheat' just because its hard to moderate.
I totally understand the amount of work it would take to check everyone, but surely the suspects need to know that they may get caught out by someone seeing the replay or by a following car on track.
If certain people were using it as a blatant way of gaining time lap after lap or in crucial on-track fights then it is plain rule bending and should be punished accordingly, otherwise the only people being penalised are those who strived to drive within the rules. 

Of course, you guys run this show and we all have to respect your decision. 

[Paul968]

The trouble is Mark, we have not had a single report of cutting for those races from any driver outside the moderating team, and this includes you as one of the main people who asked for the rules to be tightened in the first place IIRC. It is simply far too much work for us to check methodically - as I mentioned above, in an endurance race there is somewhere in the region of 30 hours of replay to check. Even with speeding it up, surely you don't expect us to do that do you? Another factor is that we cannot get the replay of the qual session, so we have no idea who may have cut then. We will try to find an answer, but there may not be an ideal solution to this.

[Jure]

Ah yes, the grey zone issues, I love them. 

There are two reasons for cutting track.

One, which happens often enough, is "oh ****, I missed my brake point" or "oh ****, brakes are overheating, again.". It happens - check my last Monza race. 

Second one is doing it on purpose, but that's very easy to spot, since it happens more or less on every lap, besides, one can clearly see if cutting is induced by driving error (car-not-under-control  ) or on purpose (car looks smooth & stable enough and yet cutting occurs).

Anyway, my point being: if one cuts track on purpose, he knows it, hence he can beat me 5 seconds per lap, but I'll still know who's "driver" and who's "ready do to anything possible to "win"". And so does he. Or she, to be politicaly corrrect.

It all comes down to one's character. 

[DynoDaz]

None of us are asking you guys to watch every minute of the replays and we understand that the majority of cases of corner cutting will go unpunished.  However, relaxing the rules is not the way to go!!  At the moment corner cutting is done by the minority here.  If the penalties for consistent corner cutting are severe enough, these people might be discouraged from doing it.  Relaxing the rules will only encourage more corner cutters; those of us that try to stay within the rules might be tempted to join them because it will be the only way to compete with them on the track...
 

[Paul968]

Yes, Darren, but you then end up with a totally unfair system. You are right that it's the minority, but quite a large one - a third of the drivers in one race were cutting to some extent (more than the odd occasional mistake) and we can't just ignore half of those because we haven't got time to check. It needs to be all or nothing IMO. Even checking one driver takes about as long as it would to moderate an incident, of which there are perhaps 3-4 on average per race otherwise. I just don't have that amount of extra time to give.

Another possibility might be for drivers to act as helpers for the mods, checking for cutting, but whatever we do will take time to arrange, hence Dave's decision. I really don't think it will make a big difference over 2 races, but at least everyone will be judged the same.

[Kerr]

[That's tantamount to suggesting that we change the rule because you're not very good at setting the car up. Some people aren't very good at hopping curbs because they set the car up too stiff, but nobody has asked us to change the rules so that the curbs are out of bounds.

 should have explained that a bit better. I don't just mean a slight run over the kerb, it's clearly outwith the defined contours of the track. Kerbs are fine and watch any form of motorsport and that is exactly what happens. Taking a straight line though a chicane and missing both apexes by some distance is defined as cheating.

 I understand that you have made the decision as you can't possibly check every car on every lap. Hard job, and it seems you have a lot to contend with to start with.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Let's make something else clear - our rules are at least as arbitrary as those used by the games, arguably more so.

It's not cheating as long as the rules are clear and objective - the playing field is level whether we define the limits or the game. By relying on the game to check things are arguably more fair because everyone's laps are checked all the time and there's no way to cheat by hoping to cut unnoticed.

[Kerr]

Let's make something else clear - our rules are at least as arbitrary as those used by the games, arguably more so.

It's not cheating as long as the rules are clear and objective - the playing field is level whether we define the limits or the game. By relying on the game to check things are arguably more fair because everyone's laps are checked all the time and there's no way to cheat by hoping to cut unnoticed.

 i understand what you are getting at but the rules were defined before racing started at Monza, but because they were breached the goal posts moved. It's not your fault as I must admit since being involved with this site you especially put in a great deal of effort and I have enjoyed it.

I think the guys themselves have to draw the line and play fair.

[Aagramn]

In the light of the large amount of corner cutting which has happened in the Endurance Masters and NGT Sprint races, for this race only, the Use Of Track Surface rules are relaxed so that GTR2 will be the sole arbiter of whether a corner has been cut.

Think it's a sensible decision given the problems we've had at the last two races. Moderating cutting incidents is very time consuming, as to see the line the driver usually takes you have to look at their entire race . I was asked to check a single driver from a GTL race once, and it took me 20-30 minutes.

[Mark J]

whats a sensible GT laptime around here with the ballast pack cars? And by sensible, i mean 'acheivable' to a mortal not an alien time.

[Jeffrey]

whats a sensible GT laptime around here with the ballast pack cars? And by sensible, i mean 'acheivable' to a mortal not an alien time.

1:42-1:43

[Joss]

whats a sensible GT laptime around here with the ballast pack cars? And by sensible, i mean 'acheivable' to a mortal not an alien time.

43-44  = Sensible
42-43  = Fast
41-42  = V Fast
Sub 41 = Alien 

Bear in mind these are qualy laps

[Blunder]

Morning guys!
Just thought I'd add to the excellent discussion!?

I have to say I took the kerb on the entry to both chicanes on a regular basis!?
That seems reasonable on this track!? As you say you can overdo it and the game will complain so
it's reasonably self policing I guess!?
Remember that at the back of the grid we are not always as consistant as the 'Aliens' !!
To be honest, whether I cut them or not was never my issue!? I was only fast through there when
I was precise and smooth!? which basically meant missing the kerbs!

But to go back to the basic point, I agree with Dave, relaxing the rules for this track ONLY seems a sensible
option. Thats what a moderator is for!!

Obviously I'm new to this but the beauty with this league / forum is it does seem to attract people who want to race
fairly and friendly!?

M.