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Author Topic: Corner cutting rules for the last two UKGTR Season 4 races  (Read 6441 times)
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Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer
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« on: February 02, 2007, 08:57:05 AM +0000 »

Our policy until the end of Season 4 is as follows.

At most corners, we will allow GTR2 to police cutting. This means that the normal rules are relaxed for the purposes of determine whether a corner has been cut or not.

This does not absolve a driver from responsibility for a pass for position or successful defence from such a pass which is the result of cutting. In those circumstances, the guilty driver must still give the place back.

There are a small number of corners at Hockenheim where we will apply stricter rules - please see the track-specific rules below. At those corners, the rules applied will be the "Marked Course" rule from Race2Play. This is stricter than our normal rules, because you must keep the full width two wheels within the white lines (inclusive of the width of those lines) on the track; the curbs do not count as part of the marked course, so you may put only two wheels on them.

(I'm seeking clarification from R2P of exactly how they interpret the rules.)

We will review the situation again at the end of the season.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 08:54:48 AM +0000 by Simon 'Shark' Gymer » Logged

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Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 09:03:35 AM +0000 »

Track specific rules for Hockenheim National

Between the final two turns, you must keep the full width of at least two wheels on or inside the white line on the left of the track. If you run wider, you must slow down and rejoin as if going off track - you must not use the extra width to get a better run out of the final corner.

Note that we will allow the game to police turn 1. This allows considerably more leeway than our normal rules.

Update for Endurance Academy and GT Sprint

The line inside the curbs between the final two turns is dotted but for our pursposes drivers should make every effort to avoid running their outside tyres beyond the solid white line outside the beyond the curbs. If the car no longer sounds or feels like its running over the curbs you have probably gone too far and should avoid doing that habitually.

Anyone using the pit exit road as part of their normal path through T1 will be subject to public ridicule.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 02:14:42 PM +0000 by Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer » Logged

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Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 09:03:43 AM +0000 »

Barcelona rules will be announced closer to the final rounds.
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Simon Gymer
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 09:19:24 AM +0000 »

Well that's nice and clear then.   Roll Eyes Sad Huh

Are we following the rules or not? We allow GTR2 to police but if you cut and make place/defend place as a result of what? our old rules or new rules or what?

I'm now very confused as a driver I have no idea what I should be driving at all and having multiple rules for one race is just impossible to drive.

This whole corner cutting thing has gotten out of hand. We should have just stuck to our perfectly good rules from before and when cuts are reported that break the rules they get moderated like anything else.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 02:07:05 PM +0000 by Simon 'Shark' Gymer » Logged

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Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 11:50:20 AM +0000 »

Are we following the rules or not? We allow GTR2 to police but if you cut and make place/defend place as a result of what? our old rules or new rules or what?

GTR2 defines whether you have cut or not, except where we specify otherwise (just one corner at Hock).

You will then know whether you have cut or not.

If you have cut, you can decide whether you gained or defended a place as a result.

It's not complex unless you've set out to misunderstand it. Angry
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 01:31:15 PM +0000 »

I don't envy you guys having to work out an answer to it and well done with what you've come up with but I think this situation is a HUGE shame Sad

Because winning is so damn important to some people that they will cheat to gain an unfair advantage, SRUK have been forced to adjust the rules and now we're not really driving accurate versions of real life tracks within equivalent parameters that real life races use. Without having the chance to race for real, this is as close as the majority of us will get, except, were all a little further away now because the cheating means we can now all take liberties with massive chicane cuts and the like. Anyone going to genuinely feel pleased with a new fastest lap at Nurburgring in qualifying, knowing that they shot straight through the last chicane whilst the other guy drove it properly?

It's a sim first and foremost. The realism is of prime importance to me, probably more than for most people I can understand but this is a bit too arcade for me. Just to be clear, I'm not criticising SRUK and have no great solution to offer myself. I just wish some people had had the spirit behind SRUK in mind more recently- honest and hard but FAIR racing Angry
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Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 02:04:02 PM +0000 »

To be fair Paul I never wanted to have any rules in this area in the first place; all it does is add administrative overhead and yet another a driver has to remember during the race. I'd much rather the game controlling it because it's far less open to interpretation.
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 05:01:33 PM +0000 »

I'd much rather the game controlling it because it's far less open to interpretation.

which creates a problem since game gives warning/penalties even if you've messed up and entered chicane... ermmmm.... sideways or even rear end first  Grin

another peculiar AI stupidity is that if you (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't) mess up a corner and you DO cut it whilst on zero throttle - nothing happens. luckily, you can't gain time like that, so all's fine, i guess.


this topic reminds me of Il2 sturmovik forums. i feel your (admins) pain. been there, did that. Grin


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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 05:28:27 PM +0000 »

I'd also like to offer some support for Dave and the rest of the SRouk team over this, it must be very frustrating and we do appreciate your efforts trying to come up with a workable solution, especially having to come up with something mid-season. Thanks for your efforts guys Kiss

My 2p's worth is that I think we should stick to the rules as they were at the start of the season. Let the game handle the penalties for severe corner cutting and allow drivers to report other incidents of cutting. However, the penalties should be extremely severe (note the bold, italics AND red text for emphasis Wink) for violating them, that should be the deterrent.

If it isn't reported then I guess they get away with it <shrug> if it's that important to them to win like that then fine, I don't think it's worth the time or the effort trying to moderate it. If another driver want to make a report, they can do so by checking the replay.

The rules are very clear, if people want to take the piss then they risk the risk of suffering a very, very harsh penalty.

It's not an ideal solution but it's clear, workable and easy to understand.

I know the vast majority of SRouk drivers stick to the rules (in spirit and the written rules) and I'm happy with that.
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 05:30:27 PM +0000 »

I'm with Dave on this one...it's just too much work otherwise..I've been down that road as well.

Like Paul said, the anus onus is on us drivers.
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Jeffrey
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2007, 05:31:14 PM +0000 »

Corner cutting aracde...WHAT? Check races like DTM. If poles or other things disappear, they cut as much as possible. I don't think the rules should have changed, not for Donnington nor Monza. Besides, the runoff areas at Hockenheim only slow you down, as it's totally different tarmac, and it isn't banked like the corner is.
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2007, 09:48:05 PM +0000 »

I just hate the very idea of changing rules mid-season. Setting rules for specific corners is even more evil! I thought I would never say this after being sacked from TeamShark Wink but Simon is right - just keep the old rules of one pair of wheels on the track and let the moderators do their job if anyone spots a cheater.

The only think I would suggest to implement STARTING NEXT SEASON would be more severe penalty for a driver caught cheating - preferably disqualification.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 09:49:36 PM +0000 by Pedro[PL] » Logged



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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2007, 11:03:17 PM +0000 »

I totally agree with Simon and Pedro.  We should keep the old rules and then if someone is reported and found guilty of constant corner cutting, they should be then given a severe penalty; maybe disqualification and a ban from the next race.

If the penalties are severe enough people WILL think twice.

I'm not suggesting the Mods should be solely responsible for catching these people, and I'm not suggesting that a report is filed for every corner cutting incident; sometimes people make mistakes.  But if we all condemn such activities when we see them (like in open practise) people will get the message.

By relaxing the rules, you will only encourage it.   
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2007, 11:25:11 PM +0000 »

I'll hit kerbs as hard and fast as I can get away with, and repeatedly, Ruskus. But always aiming to keep two wheels on the black stuff. I'm sure you do the same, along with the DTM drivers or can they skip past chicanes? I don't get to see very much DTM stuff with my cable subscription so maybe they can push it further? Driving in a straight line through slow chicanes, as is possible at a few GTR2 tracks though, definitely IS arcade, to me at least.

I'm know I've driven outside these parameters, the recent race at Monza for example, when I made a hash of entering the second chicane a couple of times. Not lap after lap though and that calculating approach is worth masses of time over the length of a race. Without the games being more intelligent though (tighten up the detection but then differentiate somehow between a calculated cut and an accidental one) race series are always going to struggle getting something that suits everyone. Even if SRUK said that a repeated cut, say over 3 successive laps, was worth a severe penalty then that is something that could be exploited by someone cutting only every 5th laps- that would still be worth a lot of time over the length of an endurance race. Ya can't win Undecided
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2007, 12:39:59 PM +0000 »

Yea it's a tricky one. It's a shame the game doesn't prevent it. At Monza for example, those stripy bumps would rip a wheel of the chassis at high speed lol.

In EOAA, If you're caught intentionally cutting more than once in two laps you get a lot of time added to your final race time. A driver could if they wanted do two clean laps, then a cut lap, then two clean and then a cut.. and get away with it. But they'd have to be driving alone. I guess the lap times might reflect this behaviour too so it might not be too difficult to spot.

Actually I did mention about doing clean laps then a cut lap in my rules but then I deleted it and instead decided that if a driver is seen doing it once they get a 50 second penalty. In a 90 minute race I doubt you could make up 50 seconds by cutting so it doesn't make sense to cut.

I do think specific cutting rules per track is a good idea. Most turns you can use generalizations but some turns do need pictures.

 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 12:42:48 PM +0000 by Rich_A » Logged

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