UKGTR Season 5 Endurance Clubmen - Estoril (GP) - Apr 29

[Adam Parle]

LOL Mark! I feel pretty splattered with mud now...

 

[Truetom]

I always feel I have to jump outta way while I race as a guest in Clubmen Endurance, always feel guilty when I hold scoring cars, either GT1s or GT2s/GTCs. It was funny in the begining of the race when 4 GT3s were mixed with Gerald and Ginsters, we seemed all tangled up. 

After my close meeting    with a lapping GT1 my lead of 5 sec from Paul968 turned into being 10+ sec behind I knew that even if I drive without any mistakes and fast I wouldn't catch him, not in the last 15 minutes, so I quit. As for the lapping GT1 I must say he was on cold tyres as he just came outta pit and I think in normal circumstances he would probably pass without cotact. As he was in a scoring car, fighting for position I just hope he didn't lose too much time. It's hard for a GT1 drivers to pass safely in a twisty track like Estoril. I remember when Backo was lapping us the first time. I went outta way and the car in front (mo, Richard?) coulnd't see him on time and Backo made it through using a slalom technique.    Risky move, for both parties.    I don't think he would do it in real race. I wouldn't even do it in a simulation.

I had a good race until pitting, we were having some close racing with Paul968, mo and Nevski. 

TT

[Mark J]

Nope, didnt have a problem Paul, but alas you were wrong in your description, i closed up before the entry to gancho, meaning you knew i was there and could have eased over to the left as others had done when i caught them in that area. But you stayed central to the track uphill and along the racing line upto the next right/left before the main parabolica turn. In the heat of battle it felt like i was being badly blocked but in the cold light of day is nothing to lose sleep over 
I am pretty certain that it cost more than 0.9 of a second too 

But anyway would rather leave it at that, as you mention, its a nasty area for two cars with a huge performance gap to share. 

[Kerr]

It's an area that there is no consistency and that is what is the most confusing part of it. It is difficult for the slower cars to pay full attention to what is happening behind them when there is so much to worry about ahead. Like GT1 cars they are in a race too and losing a second or two on every pass can and will cost a better finishing position. Likewise for GT1's.

What causes most trouble is there is no set rules for passing adopted by racers. Most guys give a flash and you know the score and can read the situation, and that is very helpful.

Some expect you to follow and either pass on the next main straight, but like last night that can mean following for about 6 corners or you have to pull off an overtaking manoeuvre.

Some slow down and stay on racing line and others even slow and move off it which can cause trouble.

Last night a few people used the sudden braking technique, which can really catch you out.

Everybody makes snap decisions on track and I'm sure on reflection and with aid's of replays see it's a bad call. I have never seen a malicious accident on here.

How about before each race a small thread just to discuss passing points and methods of passing? Just a suggestion to to stop the confusion and stop any bad feeling/mud slinging

[Paul968]

Not sure if you are suggesting that I could have let you past before gaucho, because this wasn't on IMO? I don't see how I was wrong in the description - you were not close enough to pass before gaucho and I didn't feel it was right to go well offline on the exit as you then cannot make the left following.

I'd rather you didn't use the 'B' word btw, as this was anything but blocking IMO.

For the record, here are your lap times around incident:

21       1.39.295
22       1.36.752
23       1.39.679
24       1.38.642         Our 'meeting'
25       1.37.834
26       1.37.792

The crux of this is about whether I should be prepared to lose a lot of time to let you past when I'm in the middle of a close fight ahead and behind. I'd say that this is all part of the race, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do differently, especially with the long straight coming up, but you clearly don't see it that way. I suppose we will have to agree to differ    

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

How about before each race a small thread just to discuss passing points and methods of passing? Just a suggestion to to stop the confusion and stop any bad feeling/mud slinging

The problems with relying on that are that

• there will be arguments afterwards about whether somebody actually followed the agreements or not;
• nobody will be able to remember exactly what they are supposed to do or where;
• people will start to rely on being told what to do instead of using their noggins.

There are so many different cars with such a range of capabilities, and so many different corners at each track, that I doubt we could actually make hard and fast rules covering them and still remember them.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Paul and Mark - both of you know better than to slip into discussions of particular on track 'discussions' in public. Please take it offline or file reports as normal. Thanks.

[Simon Gymer]

How about before each race a small thread just to discuss passing points and methods of passing? Just a suggestion to to stop the confusion and stop any bad feeling/mud slinging

The problems with relying on that are that

• there will be arguments afterwards about whether somebody actually followed the agreements or not;
• nobody will be able to remember exactly what they are supposed to do or where;
• people will start to rely on being told what to do instead of using their noggins.

There are so many different cars with such a range of capabilities, and so many different corners at each track, that I doubt we could actually make hard and fast rules covering them and still remember them.

You missed a point, getting EVERYONE to read all the info is hard, we know it's hard to get everyone to read the full race post.

Nice idea though.

[Truetom]

I don't think making more rules will solve anything as it never happens exactly the same. More patience from both parties and sensible moves, that will solve problems. 
Also - don't post until the red mist in your eyes fades a bit.    I feel I have a more objective view over the incident on the next day, after I see the replay. 

TT

[pribeiro]

I don't think making more rules will solve anything as it never happens exactly the same. More patience from both parties and sensible moves, that will solve problems. 
Also - don't post until the red mist in your eyes fades a bit.    I feel I have a more objective view over the incident on the next day, after I see the replay. 

TT

I complety agree, that way we dont complain nosense issues

[Mark J]

is that No sense or nonsence 

As for me and Paul    like i said, not a problem. Problem with just reading script on a forum is you cant see the other persons facial features or eyes to judge the mood they are speaking in...i speak from bitter experience with (now) ex-girlfriends   

[pribeiro]

is that No sense or nonsence 

As for me and Paul    like i said, not a problem. Problem with just reading script on a forum is you cant see the other persons facial features or eyes to judge the mood they are speaking in...i speak from bitter experience with (now) ex-girlfriends   

nonsense 

 

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Lost ages in the pit stop again must sort that out some how , but how?

I posted some useful numbers on our forums, Gerald. In GT2 and GTC, most cars will do at least 80 minutes without adding fuel, which saves time at the expense of speed early in the race.

[popabawa]

I think Dave makes a good point, it's much easier to deal with the drivers you trust, and that works both ways. If I know someone isn't going to do something I don't expect then I can concentrate on driving as well as I can until there's an opportunity to overtake, I think that means the overtaking car loses less time than if I'm watching my mirrors and driving slightly defensively to protect myself. I'm afraid I'm not good enough to drive well AND concentrate on the car behind!

And just to make myself totally clear, this ISN'T a general bitch about GT1's, nearly all of you are absolute gents ->

Partly the reason for bringing it up is so the other drivers are aware of the issue and encourage you to report it. The only way to sort this out is through reporting the incidents, it's not going to get fixed on here.

[Jure]

Right, here's my 2 cents on the race.

After practicing for 15 laps on Saturday (my first outing in Estoril) I felt... depressed, even toyed with idea of letting this race by since I felt I'd be a danger to rest of the drivers. 

On Sunday I put in some 40 laps prior to race start, fixing setup relatively well (should read: stable enough not to butcher cars around me). Strategy was simple: finish the race, stay out of  trouble.

Decided to start on medium-hard tyres with 100L of fuel giving me projected 33 laps, warm-up lap included, then switching to soft-medium for last 16 laps. Of course that meant sacrificing tyre pressure in first (longer) stint, leaving them a bit underinflated in order to provide softs/mediums with low enough pressure which wouldn't cause serious overheating in second stint.

Turns out weather (and track temperature) played a big role in tyre temps. First stint left me on 194-195kPa tyre pressure, resulting in low tyre temp and unpredictable handling. And, as we all know, unpredictable handling causes sudden rear-end, erm, movement. Lap 6: off we go, did a horrific 1.51.smthn lap (erratic return to track=another spin into the barrier etc, don't ask  ), decided to calm down and just do my race (whatever that meant  ) but, unfortunately, that also meant even lower tyre pressure, since I did not abuse the car sufficiently enough to keep the tyres on a reasonable temperature level, hence losing additional half a second per lap.

Anyway, had some more outings and/or crappy laps, stayed out too long (lost pace during lap 28-33, some 2 secs per lap), fearing if I'd not stay out for maximum possible distance, I'd suffer tyre wear in my second stint. Big mistake. Turns out my second stint did NOT wear tyres at all, since they were at 200kPa and optimal temp. Pace proved it. Tried to hunt down Gizmo (although I felt it's mission impossible I gave it a try anyway, hoping for Gizmo's mistake  Funny, I thought Gizmo let off his pace and not being that slow "for real" anyway.)

Pity, strategy was, apparently, a correct one, but execution... sucked. Mind you, I was "discovering" correct racing lines throughout the race itself (and getting pissed off by it since I went "well, this knowledge would help setting up the car properly").

Big apologies to backmarkers I made contact with, wasn't intentional at all, my braking and cornering capabilities varied from lap to lap due to tyre temps, simply slid into a yellow Porsche in a tight left hander (no idea about corner name  ) and spun him off. Similar stuff with 2 more cars, braked early, planning for a pass under power, but car just didn't stop, hence a contact (will check replay to get the names and apologise to appropriate drivers).

Nice track to race at... at least to those who like flying a jet plane in a living room.