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  • S4055GP Monsanto Park: May 22, 2022
May 22, 2022, 09:35:32 PM +0100 - Monsanto Park - UKGPL Season 40 (Spring 2022) 1955 GP
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Leo Menegucci
 
Maserati 250F (#1955) F1 1955 1 2:07.505
95.437mph
1 45:27.240
93.700mph
21 2:08.989
94.339mph
Pirelli  
GrandPrixYannick
 
Gordini T16 (#1955) F1 1955 3 +2.203
93.816mph
2 +19.277
93.042mph
21 2:08.430
94.750mph
Englebert  
Doni Yourth
 Blue Moose Racing
Lancia D50 (#1955) F1 1955 2 +1.831
94.086mph
3 +22.791
92.923mph
21 2:09.825
93.731mph
Pirelli  
Pete Bennett
 TeamTobo
Maserati 250F (#1955) F1 1955 4 +2.283
93.758mph
4 +29.862
92.685mph
21 2:09.057
94.289mph
Pirelli  
bagrupp
 Team Groundhog
Connaught Type B (#1955) F1 1955 5 +3.004
93.240mph
5 +55.634
91.827mph
21 2:10.125
93.515mph
Pirelli  
fpolicardi
 Team7
Connaught Type B (#1955) F1 1955 12 +6.764
90.629mph
6 +1:05.627
91.498mph
21 2:10.690
93.111mph
Pirelli  
Clive Loynes
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Gordini T16 (#1955) F1 1955 6 +3.495
92.891mph
7 +1:21.807
90.971mph
21 2:11.040
92.862mph
Englebert  
Enrique Farina
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Gordini T16 (#1955) F1 1955 8 +5.243
91.668mph
8 +1L
89.183mph
20 2:11.655
92.429mph
Englebert  
Phil Thornton
 Antipasti Racing
Connaught Type B (#1955) F1 1955 9 +5.615
91.411mph
9 +10L
91.122mph
11 2:10.412
93.310mph
Disco
Pirelli  
Claudio Navonne
 
Lancia D50 (#1955) F1 1955 7 +4.893
91.910mph
10 +15L
91.090mph
6 2:11.359
92.637mph
Disco
Pirelli  
Moises Pereira
 
Connaught Type B (#1955) F1 1955 11 +6.636
90.716mph
11 +19L
85.419mph
2 2:17.675
88.387mph
Disco
Pirelli  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Ferrari 625 (#1955) F1 1955 13 +8.273
89.622mph
12 +20L
81.707mph
1 2:21.869
85.774mph
Disco
Englebert  
EvilClive
 Blue Moose Racing
Maserati 250F (#1955) F1 1955 10 +6.555
90.770mph
13 +21L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Pirelli  
60fps UKGPL05
 
Gordini T16 (#1955) F1 1955 14 DNS ---
---
Englebert  

Moderator's Report

Summary
A fine win by Leo in the Maserati and a brilliant second place by Yannick in the rather uncompetitive Gordini. Doni brought the Lancia home in third for a well-deserved sip of champagne.


Server replay time: 0h34m24s

Lap 17 - Windmill Bend - Yannick Verheijen and Pete Bennett
Yannick is following Pete who in turn is behind Doni Yourth. As the trio approach Windmill Bend, Yannick sees an opportunity to pass Pete on the inside. Yannick gets alongside and keeps a tight line, but Pete maintains his racing line and contact is made. Pete spins around and hits the haybales with the rear of his car. Fortunately, he can continue but he loses about 200 metres to Doni. Yannick is unaffected.

At turn-in Yannick had over 50% overlap but not quite 100%. This falls under the definition of a contested overtake. Both drivers could have avoided contact. Yannick by not attempting the overtake and Pete by recognising Yannick was making a legitimate overtaking attempt and leaving him enough room.

Neither driver can be held accountable. It is in both drivers’ interest to avoid contact. To penalise anyone for attempting a viable overtaking manoeuvre or mounting a rigorous but fair defence would be counterproductive.

  • Racing incident

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 40 (Spring 2022) 1955 GP - Works - Monsanto Park - May 22  (Read 869 times)
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Phil Thornton
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« on: May 16, 2022, 02:38:44 PM +0100 »

Season 40 – 1955 Grand Prix – Round 9 – Works - Monsanto Park

This race announcement is for the WORKS.

The ninth race in the 1955 Grand Prix series takes us to Portugal. The street circuit of Monsanto Park to be precise. Built on parkland, the circuit was considered difficult to drive because it crossed so many different types of surfaces, including tramlines at one point. The track hosted numerous races from 1954 to 1959, but only one race qualified as a Formula One event: the 1959 Portuguese Grand Prix, won by Stirling Moss. He won the race in the twilight hours, since the race was purposefully started late in the day to avoid the intense late summer sun.

Race list = iGOR
Server = UKGPL05_60fps
IP address Server = 146.199.161.253:32666
Password = see above
GPL Mod = 55
60fps Patch = 60fpsV2newmod
Track download = link
Track directory = monsanto
Qualifying starts = 20:45 UK time - 45 minutes
Race starts = ~ 21:30 UK time
Race length = 21 laps
Replay = here

Please restrict chat to emergency messages only including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

Driver lists and division specific rules can be found on the championship standings page.

Available Tokens:
Note: These are the tokens available to each driver before the 10 tokens are added for making the race start.

Driver        Tokens  Status
bagrupp
7
Works
Claudio Navonne
32
Works
Clive Loynes
0
Works
Cookie
5
Works
Doni Yourth
22
Works
Enrique Farina
9
Works
EvilClive
20
Works
fpolicardi
3
Works
Giovanni Centorame
7
Works
GrandPrixYannick
0
Works
JonnyO
16
Works
Leo Menegucci
7
Works
Moises Pereira
0
Works
Pete Bennett
12
Works
Phil Thornton
3
Works
romanov
12
Works
Sebastian Skinner
20
Works
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JonnyO
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2022, 01:27:12 AM +0100 »

   This Sunday I'll be traveling, I'll be back at night, good race everyone!
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GrandPrixYannick
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2022, 10:58:32 PM +0100 »

After spending all of my tokens over two races I needed to refill again, so the Gordini it was.
I managed to qualify third just in between Doni and Pete.

Start was obviously slow. The Gordini needs a 5-speed gearbox as I needed the first gear for a good number of turns around this track.
I dropped a few places but I got my way around the drivers that passed, included one beauty around the outside of Bastian.
I could make my way up to third where I had to give my best to keep up with Doni. I could catch him, but a few mistakes dropped me to 4th behind Pete, who on his turn could catch up to Doni. At the same time I was able to catch up with the two for a three way fight.

This unfortunately turned into just me and Doni after I went for a gap on Pete at Windmill Bend. But we made contact and he got spun around. Sorry, Pete, that's on me I think... Sad
I put the pressure on Doni in my attempt to get second place, and it came down to the wire on the final lap. In what was one of the most sensational final laps I have ever driven I got on him on the last corner. Great battle, Doni.

See you next race.
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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2022, 11:23:59 PM +0100 »

Great result with the Gordini Yannick.

I shall watch the replay to see how it is done.
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Leo Menegucci
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2022, 11:57:26 PM +0100 »

Doni crossing the line rearwards is the highlight of the season!  I Am Not Worthy
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Doni Yourth
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2022, 04:57:27 PM +0100 »

Only one way to call this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5O4073zCKA

Great job by Leo to waltz away to a convincing win.  I had nothing for him.  So depressing to see him inch away, lap after lap.  Sigh...

Early laps saw me holding well in P2 with first Pete and then Yannick several seconds down.  I felt fairly confident of holding the runner-up spot provided I didn't bungle it.  That came oh so close to being the case when the Lancia skidded to the right on braking for the Clover Leaf on Lap14 and I had to tip-toe around the outside to save it.  Lost quite a bit of time in doing so.  Pete and Yannick were ever closer now and seeming to be quite willing to take risks that I wouldn't.  Lap17 could have seen it all shake out in my favour when Yannick stuck it up the inside of Pete at Windmill and biffed him off the road.  Tsk, tsk...  This pretty much eliminated Pete from the battle and left me with a small lead over Yannick.  Pete's chances really took a nosedive when he stuffed it into the bales at the Clover Leaf the very next lap and lost a ton of time.  Comes Lap19 and with obviously more grip and cohonnies than I, Yannick tried to shove it up the inside for place at the Riding School.  This scared me wide and he passed.  Lap20 and I got the pass done on the main straight to retake P2.  Finishing the lap, I was a bit wide on entry to the Pit Hairpin and we went through there virtually side-by-side.  Drama!  Last lap and approaching the Riding School, Yannick is able to pull to the right much faster than I in setup for the corner and this forces me to stay tight left.  He takes a stab at a pass on the exit but has to yield for the sweeper to the right to follow.  I didn't have time to set properly for Windmill and on the exit, he's half-way up on my left.  Only the Pit Hairpin left now and bugger it all, I bungled it by going wide and letting him through.  In trying to gas it for a shot up the hill to the line, the D50 got away from me, spun, clipped a pole and I was obliged to select reverse to cross the SFline.  PHEW!  Rather disappointed in the result but it could have been worse.
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2022, 11:33:10 AM +0100 »

Moderation published.
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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2022, 05:52:33 PM +0100 »

Moderation published.


If an overtaking driver has any part of their car beside another as they enter a corner (known as overlap), the driver being overtaken should not move across; they should give the overtaking car room and go through the corner side by side, or let them through into the corner and try to re-take them at the exit. Drivers must learn to judge overlap without being able to actually see the opposition, this requires an understanding of the limited visibility provided by the mirrors. As described here.

?
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2022, 11:12:38 PM +0100 »

It’s nice to know someone reads the rules Clive  thumbup2. Your quote comes from the etiquette pages which, like the recommended driver behaviour, describes how drivers should behave in order to avoid unnecessary contact. However, the etiquette pages and recommended driver behaviour are not prescriptive enough to apportion blame for all possible incidents which is why we have the Penalty Guidelines. These pages try to specify more precisely what penalties can be applied and why (so we have consistent moderation). In this case what matters is overlap. The penalty guidelines take precedence, if you think the description on the etiquette page is confusing, I can change it to try to make it align better with the penalty guidelines.
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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2022, 08:44:12 PM +0100 »

Hmmm...

"At turn-in Yannick had over 50% overlap but not quite 100%."

You could re-write the etiquet pages but to me it's the Penalty Guidelines that need attention.

If I can achieve more than 50% overlap at turn-in I expect to be given racing room.  It sounds as though Yannick did his part to avoid contact so it was Pete who should have taken a wider line.
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2022, 09:59:26 PM +0100 »

The GPL Recommended Driver behaviour states “If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to room.” But it doesn’t specify “sufficient”. The penalty guidelines state a 50% overlap is the minimum that can be considered “sufficient”.  The argument being that we don’t want to encourage speculative moves that are unlikely to be successful.

If we change the penalty guidelines so that 50% overlap at turn-in is sufficient to shift the entire blame for any contact to the ahead driver. Then perhaps we should also change the minimum overlap at turn-in to be 0% in order to shift the entire blame for any contact to the behind driver. That would mean the “contested overtake” (and hence no driver is blamed) would be for overlaps between 0% and 50%.

Would this be enough to deter speculative moves or are we just going to encourage reckless driving?
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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2022, 10:49:58 AM +0100 »

Hi Phil,
I'm busy grandading today but will try to address the issues this evening when I come off duty.
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EvilClive
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2022, 11:39:25 AM +0100 »

I have been following this discussion from a safe distance..... and thinking, so I had to take a rest in a darkened room to recover.

However, my thoughts are ...

We could discuss forever what actual percentage of overlap entitles a chasing car to take priority through a corner. I think perhaps the more important issues are that we are :-

a) consistent and
b) making sure that all participants understand the rules
c) trying to promote enjoyable racing

Side by side contact in a corner approach situation is probably one of the most common "incidents" that appears in the court system. If by implementing an understandable ruling we minimise those race ending moments and the resulting flame wars on the forum, then surely that is desirable.

I understand Clive's point of view regarding the "realism" of sticking a car down the inside as "last of the demon brakers" but (at least until the software can simulate pain and broken limbs), regrettably experience has shown that there are always those whose ambition has regularly exceeded their ability ( I remember a certain BURT??!!) and some who rely on intimidating their intended victim by playing "chicken" and expecting the car in front to yield the place rather than risk contesting and causing a race ending incident ( certainly in PRO mode).

UKGPL probably has the most extensive and comprehensive set of rules for participation within the GPL community. Whether that is a good, or bad, thing is open to a different debate, but I think we are in too deep to scrap it all now.

Again, I would submit that the degree of overlap is not really the issue, but being aware of the ruling. This should apply to both overtaker and overtakee equally, and if the ETIQUETTE and/or PENALTY GUIDELINES pages are conflicting or unclear then that is where the adjustments should be made??




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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2022, 08:01:03 PM +0100 »

In my view, the current penalty guidelines have given rise to the era of "lidicrously robust defence", in that the driver being overtaken doesn't appear to concern himself that a car might be alongside because it is so unlikely that the required degree of overlap could be achieved that it makes it unlikely that anyone would attempt a pass!

When I started this lark, I don't think that we had the penalty guidelines, just the etiquet rules, and it seemed to work just fine.

Also, I think that fine tuning of percentages are meaningless for the drivers in question, they just give the moderators a yardstick.

To me a substancial overlap would start when the overtaking driver can get his front wheels level with the rear wheels of the car in front AT TURN-IN.  And here may I say that if I had Yannick breathing down my neck and dodging out for a pass I would assume that his "alien braking patch" would have taken him well alongside.  I would take a wide line.

It is necessary to come down like a ton of bricks on those drivers who just stick their nose in the gap, waiting for the guy in front to turn in and trip over it.  The car on the outside invariably incurs the wrath of the GPL Crash Engine.

In my view, racing exclusively in 55mod, it's only safe to attempt a pass when the other bloke is already on the grass!
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2022, 01:39:26 PM +0100 »

In my view, the current penalty guidelines have given rise to the era of "lidicrously robust defence", in that the driver being overtaken doesn't appear to concern himself that a car might be alongside because it is so unlikely that the required degree of overlap could be achieved that it makes it unlikely that anyone would attempt a pass!

When I started this lark, I don't think that we had the penalty guidelines, just the etiquet rules, and it seemed to work just fine.
I think the Penalty Guidelines were introduced for Season 15. My web site backups, in which have amendments to the Penalty Guidelines, only go back to Season 18 but the mod report for the S15 66F1 race at Zandvoort describes the incident between you and Evil as a “Blatant Rear End Shunt – 2 places lost” which is the terminology used in the Penalty Guidelines. So it looks like we have been using the guidelines successfully for 25 of the 40 seasons. So the era of "ludicrously robust defence" has been going on for quite a while.

Rather than say the rules encourage a robust defence, I would say the rules place the onus on the following driver to make a clean pass.

Quote
Also, I think that fine tuning of percentages are meaningless for the drivers in question, they just give the moderators a yardstick.
Agreed, the purpose of the guidelines is to give the moderators a yardstick so we have consistency. However, the drivers need to be cognisant of the guidance otherwise they will not understand why they have been penalised.

Quote
To me a substancial overlap would start when the overtaking driver can get his front wheels level with the rear wheels of the car in front AT TURN-IN.  And here may I say that if I had Yannick breathing down my neck and dodging out for a pass I would assume that his "alien braking patch" would have taken him well alongside.  I would take a wide line.
Judging from the overhead view here, having the front wheels aligned with the rear wheels would equate to a 25% overlap. So are we in agreement about everything except the degree of overlap?

Quote
It is necessary to come down like a ton of bricks on those drivers who just stick their nose in the gap, waiting for the guy in front to turn in and trip over it.  The car on the outside invariably incurs the wrath of the GPL Crash Engine.
Agreed

Quote
In my view, racing exclusively in 55mod, it's only safe to attempt a pass when the other bloke is already on the grass!
Agreed, drivers need to be extra careful with the 55mod. But you've confused me a bit here because now you seem to be suggesting that the onus should be on the following driver to make a clean pass rather than on the lead driver to yield.

I’m not against changing the guidelines but I think we need to be careful not to base any changes on this one incident. If we consider a situation where 2 drivers are approaching the Parabolica at Monza or Tarzan at Zandvoort. It is reasonable for the lead driver to expect, and be prepared for, an attempted pass; in which case if he doesn’t leave room he can expect to be penalised. However, is it reasonable for the lead driver to always bear responsibility for leaving room even in corners which are not considered natural passing opportunities?

At the end of the day the guidelines are just that, guidelines. So 25% or 50% overlap is a bit arbitrary. It is up to the moderator to take into account any mitigating circumstances, which I think has been done in this case. After all in real-life F1 there are numerous occasions where the stewards take no action even though the commentators consider a driver to be at fault. Hamilton on the outside of Alonso at Spa for example. Interestingly a similar incident between Perez and Russell was only avoided because Russell backed out (whereas Alonso didn’t).

In this case I think the ruling is correct given that the move was speculative and on a part of the track where overtaking is rare and that Pete was trying to race Doni.

If I understand the debate correctly, are we only talking about amending the % overlap in the Ambitious Overtake guidelines or is there something more fundamental to consider? Don't forget there are plenty of other Penalty Guidelines that put the onus on drivers not moving over e.g. in Side by Side Contact. So the % overlap is not the be all and end all.
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