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  • S16Dn Zandvoort: January 20, 2009
January 20, 2009, 11:49:06 PM +0000 - Zandvoort (1948-72) - UKGPL Season 16 (2008) Novice '65
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Clutch4
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 1 1:30.365
---
1 41:26.859
---
27 1:30.603
---
Goodyear  
Geoff65
 Clark-Hill Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 6 +1.405
---
2 +1.963
---
27 1:29.791
---
Dunlop  
Asbjeurn Tverberg
 
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 5 +1.224
---
3 +33.627
---
27 1:30.888
---
Dunlop  
maestro57
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 7 +1.878
---
4 +56.051
---
27 1:32.195
---
Goodyear  
norbert
 
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 9 +1.911
---
5 +1:09.563
---
27 1:32.973
---
Dunlop  
G Poole
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 12 +3.820
---
6 +1:13.494
---
27 1:32.837
---
Goodyear  
miner2049er
 Clark-Hill Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 8 +1.902
---
7 +1:25.270
---
27 1:32.288
---
Dunlop  
b_1_rd
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 4 +1.141
---
8 +1L
---
26 1:31.099
---
Goodyear  
Podkrecony_Ziutek
 Clark-Hill Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 2 +0.118
---
9 +12L
---
15 1:31.241
---
Dunlop  
vosblod
 Clark-Hill Racing
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 10 +2.905
---
10 +18L
---
9 1:34.474
---
Dunlop  
happyal
 
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 11 +3.662
---
11 +27L
---
0 ---
---
Dunlop  
NHance
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 3 +0.665
---
12 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
5 UKGPL
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 13 ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Congratulations to Clutch on his first UKGPL win, achieved from pole, and with Geoff very close behind. The race was almost without incident, with a clean start and few spins- I hope the Novices don't begin to scare new drivers off! Clark-Hill Racing also debuted their new Lotus- hopefully they will be only the first of a new wave of UKGPL teams.

Steve should have ignored the black flag, though his engine problems had probably ruled him out anyway.. Asbjeurn's third gives him a mathematical chance of the championship so Sam will be allowed to return for Monza should he wish.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 16 (2008-9) Novice '65 - Zandvoort (1967) - Jan 20  (Read 9963 times)
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Jack O'Ferrall
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« on: January 15, 2009, 08:30:52 PM +0000 »

UKGPL Season 16 - Novices and Amateurs - Race 9 - 65 mod - Zandvoort(1967)

Natan had a good result with the Lotus at Brands, and he will be difficult to catch.  However Zandvoort doesn't favour his Lotus and the championship may not be decided until Monza, if his main rivals are able to race this time out. 

I'll allow Sam to return to the Novices for the Monza race, should his lead be under threat, so that the Novices championship can be decided on the track.  If there are drivers waiting for a new season to make their debuts, you're encouraged to test the format in the later stages of this season, in order to be ready for the new one.

There has been another request for improved aero for the 65s- the RSC thread is here:  http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=329607
While some consider the 66 tow excessive, the slower top speeds of the 65s would reduce this problem to a large extent.  Also, the current 65 model isn't that of the original cars as it was impossible to make it work- the crude solution was to increase top speeds 5%.  The 65s with tow might be fantastic racing- and of course the existing 65s would still be an option.

Please be in IGOR UKGPL chatroom by 8:40 p.m. (You will need to set up a channel called #ukgpl if you haven't already done so)
Igor and Race passwords: see above

Server ukgpl4
IP address  90.242.82.78

Race date = 20-1-2009
Time = 20:45
Track =  Zandvoort(1967)
Variant = 65F1
Damage Model = Int
Qually time = 30 minutes.
Race length = Long (27 laps)

Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page

65 Mod

These were the 65 drivers
BT7 Bonnier, Baghetti, Hulme (Bonnier drove for Walker)
BT11 Brabham Gurney Gardner Anderson Siffert (Siffert drove for Walker, Gardner and Anderson were privateers)
Lotus Clark Spence Rodriguez Mitter Russo Solana (and Maggs Hailwood Attwood Amon and Ireland for Parnell)
Ferrari Surtees Bandini Rodriguez Vaccarella Bondurant Scarfiotti
Honda Ginther Bucknum
Cooper McLaren Rindt
BRM Hill Stewart

The 1965 season was the last to use the controversial 1500cc formula which had begun after 1960, to the initial advantage of Ferrari.  The 1965 cars are smaller than the 1967 cars and have less torque and hence more grip.  It was claimed that they 'cornered on rails', however this allowed the Grand Prix series to retain the use of circuits which were otherwise to prove extremely dangerous.

The 1965 cars are ideal for those new to GPL as they allow the tracks to be learnt in light reliable cars, however these are also full Formula One cars, and quite fast.... Graham Hill got pole in his P261 in 1965 with a time of 1'30.7.  Jim Clark won the race in a Lotus 33 with a fastest lap of 1'30.6. 

David Wright's 'Legends' site http://fp.gplegends.plus.com/ has the download of the most recent 2.0.1 version (under 'details') as well as being an exceptional guide to both 1965 and 1967, for those interested in Formula One history.

Unfortunately the current 65 mod download does not have default setups.  Default setups for all the cars and tracks that are likely to be used can be downloaded from http://www.neurology-crew.com/gplserver under '65 setups'.  Note that you will have to add enough fuel for the race, whether short or long!
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FullMetalGasket
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2009, 09:00:25 AM +0000 »

At least I know Zandvort works on my pc!  Roll Eyes
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Turkey Machine
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2009, 06:43:56 PM +0000 »

Does Zandvoort normally come with no pitwall, cos I can't remember...

Also, I reckon the SRou 65s lap record might go too. Cheesy
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Phil Thornton
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2009, 07:27:23 PM +0000 »

Does Zandvoort normally come with no pitwall, cos I can't remember...
Yes.
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Asbjeurn Tverberg
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2009, 11:15:43 PM +0000 »

Hm, I got a pretty okay setup from somewhere, don't remember where or who, it's called Ferrari65_Club_Zandvort.fe1. Maybe it's Nicky Ickx who's made it? Anyway, except fro the gearing, which I've adjusted a little on first, second and fifth gear, it works fine. There's only one problem. The left front tyre get's really hot. I'm not sure what to do about it. something need to be softened, I guess, but what? Tyres? Dampers? Springs? Anti roll bar?
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Clive Loynes
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2009, 07:59:55 AM +0000 »

Thanks to Dave's 65 season and a bit of pracy on the VosServer last night I now have a complete BT7 GPL65v2 Rank of +68.763, 94th in the world and not a green square in sight.

But I quite like the BT7 at Zandvoort.

Thanks Dave.
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NickyIckx
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2009, 09:09:02 AM +0000 »

@ Åsbjeurn , those setup ya mentioned isn’t made by me. mine could be found here http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?p=3955727#post3955727

based on PJ which is labeld to be good enough for 12730  Shocked
I am 2 sec behind , lol.

would be  nice to compare with your setup , as mine serves overheated rear left tyre.


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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2009, 09:16:26 AM +0000 »

Hm, I got a pretty okay setup from somewhere, don't remember where or who, it's called Ferrari65_Club_Zandvort.fe1. Maybe it's Nicky Ickx who's made it? Anyway, except fro the gearing, which I've adjusted a little on first, second and fifth gear, it works fine. There's only one problem. The left front tyre get's really hot. I'm not sure what to do about it. something need to be softened, I guess, but what? Tyres? Dampers? Springs? Anti roll bar?

You're probably braking too late and deep into corners instead of focusing on early acceleration which is where the gain in laptime comes from. Generally I always run softer front arb for 65s and much softer front spring compared to rear. Dampers are down to personal preference, depending on how you want it to behave it during transitions (i.e. braking,acceleration). Attachment of files is turned off here, otherwise I'd post some setups I got. They pretty much work from car to car without many changes, except gears.
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Base setups and tutorial for 65 mod cars
Turkey Machine
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2009, 12:13:04 PM +0000 »

What Hristo said. When I first drove these cars, I couldn't believe not only how late I could brake, but how early I could floor / modulate the throttle to get out of the corner. Use it to your advantage, don't just rely on the brakes. Incidentally, I quite like the DB setups, now they're my get-up-and-go setups for each 65 car as I'm learning them.

Oh, and I may have lowered my PB by 3 tenths. whistling
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Asbjeurn Tverberg
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2009, 09:18:08 PM +0000 »

It's hard to change my driving style now, at my age and after so many years of GPL'ing. Maybe I should see what softening up the springs and/or bars could do before I try the other option. Softening the dampers may make the chassis less controlable, or what?
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2009, 02:04:57 AM +0000 »

It's hard to change my driving style now, at my age and after so many years of GPL'ing. Maybe I should see what softening up the springs and/or bars could do before I try the other option. Softening the dampers may make the chassis less controlable, or what?

The bump in damper controls the rate of compression of the spring, while the rebound controls the rate of decompression of the spring. So:

Softer front bump would give the frontend more grip under deceleration, softer rear bump would give the rearend more grip under acceleration. In other words it wouldn't resist much under compression, i.e. it goes up easier.

Softer front rebound would give the frontend more grip under acceleration, softer rear rebound would give the rearend more grip under deceleration. In other words it wouldn't resist much under decompression, so the wheel can keep contact with the surface when it becomes unloaded, i.e. it "pushes" back down easier.

There's a thing called critical damping though, it's the threshold beyond which the damper is so soft (or so stiff) that it absorbs too slowly (or too quickly) that you end up driving just on the springs (or as if you had none), so in general don't use the max. and min. values (5 or 1), unless anything else doesn't work.

Of course you have to consider bumps, dips, kerbs, etc., which usually limit you to how you want the dampers set up.

For 65s I tend to use 2/2 front bump/rebound and 2/3 or 3/3 rear bump/rebound with 114-131 N/mm front spring and 184-201 N/mm rear spring. Front ARB usually at 263 N/mm, rear at 280 N/mm. Cambers and pressures to get equal temperature accross the thread. The rest is down to personal preference.

As Jethro said brake less deep, trail brake to make the car turn on entry, accelerate earlier and harder, turning as little as possible.
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Base setups and tutorial for 65 mod cars
Clive Loynes
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2009, 10:25:47 AM +0000 »

Does Zandvoort normally come with no pitwall, cos I can't remember...
Yes.

No

I've never seen one.  Expect Phil is talking about the pit stalls and TM is asking about the equivalent of the Kyalami Armco pit wall that separates the track from the pits.  Zandvoort doesn't have the latter.

Come to think of it, if you are far enough back in the pits you only get straw bales on the right as well.
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Turkey Machine
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 01:02:40 PM +0000 »

Does Zandvoort normally come with no pitwall, cos I can't remember...
Yes.

No

I've never seen one.  Expect Phil is talking about the pit stalls and TM is asking about the equivalent of the Kyalami Armco pit wall that separates the track from the pits.  Zandvoort doesn't have the latter.

Come to think of it, if you are far enough back in the pits you only get straw bales on the right as well.

I am talking about the armco a la Kyalami, since I'd rather not do an "Asbjeurn" and get DSQ'd when making a pit stop in the D1 race, or taking a Stop'n'Go in the Amateurs.
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 01:42:50 PM +0000 »

You're probably braking too late and deep into corners instead of focusing on early acceleration which is where the gain in laptime comes from.   

It is easier said than done though.  I think that I fall into the "too deep into the corner brigade".

I have just looked at my best effort at Zandvoort in the BT7 compared with Steve Cloyd's lap.  That annoying alien thing of his being able to come OFF the brakes so much earlier and "slither" into the corner was evident, particularly at T1.

He comes off the brakes early and takes a tight line in for an early apex.  He does his "turning" later in the corner and is then clear to boot the thing out.  My turning is earlier in the corner so whilst I accelerate earlier I can't give it full "wellie" as I am still having to negotiate the second half of the corner.

Well it's given me something to try over the next few days anyway.
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2009, 02:00:55 PM +0000 »

Going from 67s to 65s means you can automatically brake much later at most braking points, but it's not easier said than done. All you have to do is not brake as late. Wink
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