Clubmans

[Legzy]

When starting UKPnG Season One, I believed that 'Clubmans' was a fun way of boosting the amount of close racing everybody will see during an average race. I remain of the opinion it does boost close racing , but....

The last thing I wanted is for anybody to feel their racing is being spoilt by the current system we're trying out. That was the reason I stopped publishing target times (people started getting stressed when they couldn't meet them). Dropping that worked for one race, but people are now finding new things to get stressed about. The current system is also proving not only quite time consuming for me (while my available time has reduced), but many of you guys are also putting in a ton of effort that is surely unsustainable long term.

So I am thinking we should look at alternatives that require less race by race management, but still maintaining some kind of clubmans approach. For example, in the current system we're having to rank every car selected according to how it performs at that track. That info is then in massively relevant at the next track & all the testing has to happen again .

This is Season One after all, so we have a bit of licence to experiment. I have had a suggestion for a slightly different method of 'clubmans' we could use from Paul, which seems worth a try to me. Hopefully he'll pop on here shortly to summarise his idea. Alternatively, someone else might have an idea & this would be the place to share it please?

So I'd like to encourage you all to add your thoughts on the current season, how it's going, what's right & more importantly what can be improved. Even if you've not joined us for a single event, tell me why not 

[Paul968]

OK - here is the idea:

At the start of the season, all cars would be ranked using a points scoring system. Scores would be based primarily on time difference per lap for a quick driver on a typical track, normalised per minute. 1 point = 0.25 secs of time difference. The track used would be a mixture of fast and slow, straight and twisty. The scores would then be tweaked  to allow for other factors - fuel usage & tank size, tyre usage, wet weather ability (assuming we have wet races) and Ease of driving - tricky cars should be slightly cheaper IMO.

Each driver would be given an allocation for the season  - e.g 100 points. This would be done by estimating the speed of the driver over a 1 minute lap of a typical circuit - we have enough evidence already for that I think. Driver A who is 1 second a lap slower over a 1 minute lap than driver B would get 4 points (0.25 x 4) to use for every race in the season over driver B. If the season was 10 races long then driver A would start with 40 more points.

Every race each driver chooses a car, which costs x points from their allocation based on the score for that car. If they don't race then they are charged the average per race for their allocation. If they don't start the race then they also get charged the average, just to discourage people joining practice or qual for a minute in a very cheap car and then disconnecting (to save points).

If a driver ends up over-spending for the season then they are penalised a LOT for every point over - the idea is that they will certainly lose out by doing so and overspending is very much to be discouraged.

As I see it there are a number of advantages to such a system:

   - Far less effort for mods - no need to evaluate the cars per track. This is paramount as the current system is unworkable in the long term.
   - Drivers can choose any car within budget. If they are comfortable in one car then they can stick with it but others can pick and choose.
   - Drivers know from the start which cars they can take. No longer will they practice in one car only to see it change groups.
   - No arguments over fairness - everyone plays by the same rules, since anyone can drive any car.
   - It introduces an element of strategy - drivers who want to can choose the right car to suit the track. They can also choose which tracks to try to win and which to make a slow car work for midfield points.
   - It lets drivers choose to have a glory day in a fast car. The slower drivers will find that they are near the front more often (hopefully).


There are a couple of issues with this

   - How do we deal we new drivers?
      I suggest they are given a pro-rata allocation, working on the basis of a pessimistic assessment - in other words, we assume a driver is quicker than he might be, but if he turns out not to be then we bump his allocation later.


   - How do we deal with drivers who improve?
      This is connected to point one, but if a driver gets rapidly better then his allocation needs to be reduced.

Now those of us old enough to remember the glory days of the first age of online simracing (GPL) will realise that we've tried this sort of thing before. It was called 'tokens', and in some ways it worked well. In other ways though it didn't, and I can understand people having a few reservations about resurrecting it. I honestly feel though that this is different. People won't insist on driving the fastest car all season (which was the main problem before), so we don't need to cater for overspending (other than to make it prohibitive). Also, this is much more a fun league, so drivers are more likely to accept the quirks of fate that the system will throw up. I think we would end up with a similar feel to the existing championship, but with less work and some added strategic elements for those that wanted to exploit them. I commend it to the house!   

Let me know what you think.

Paul

[Mark J]

The only thing i disliked about the current system was that it denied me the chance to race my favourite (not necessarily the quickest) cars at different circuits and/or sometimes i would put a few hours practise in only then to find my car was deemed too quick (by an alien) then moved into another group, which is fairly frustrating. The plus side of that was i got to try out cars that i might not normally have driven and found to my delight they were a real blast to race with. (compared to the rubbish GTL versions...sorry but thats what i believe!)

I understand that the current groupings system must be tons of work for the admins so happy to go with anything that alleviates their problems with the effort required. Though on first read this new proposal sounds like a lot of work too ?

If we could trust the human nature of not always picking race winning cars, then i am sure most of us would just want to race our favourite cars in whatever class and enjoy the experience of emulating our old race heroes/cars. Alas, as we know from the past in GTL and P&G, too many go for the quick easy fast option of Alfas and Elans, fine if that is their favourite car, but i'd be surprised if there are that many classic Elan fans about

We also dont want to get too wrapped up in rules and politics in our classics racing, so if this new system is easy to initiate and police then go for it ! I just dont want to suddenly see top heavy grids of race winning cars leaving the rest for dust.

[Tibernius]

Alternatively, someone else might have an idea & this would be the place to share it please?

So I'd like to encourage you all to add your thoughts on the current season, how it's going, what's right & more importantly what can be improved. Even if you've not joined us for a single event, tell me why not 

I like the current version, although I can understand that it would be a lot of work for the organisers.


One idea I had a while ago (and I was going to suggest once the season had finished) was this. It's nothing spectacular, just thought I'd let you know about it:

The cars are sorted into groups in a similar way to Paul's suggestion, although it this case I'd say three tracks; high, medium and low speed. For example, Monza, Nurburgring and Cadwell.

After that the drivers are assigned groups, and they pick a car from that group. They'll then drive that car for the entire season. They would be allowed to change car once (as in UKGTR) without penalty.

This way the drivers get used to the car and they know exactly what to practice with. One thing I've found to be a problem before (at least it was with me) is when someone picks a car that's fast for that track, or fastest within their group for that track, without being able to control it properly. By keeping the same car throughout the season drivers would be more likely to pick a car they're comfortable with and can control easily.


I got the idea for this from a few AI races I did with one of the stock P&G groups sorted by pace. At Oulton, when it rained the Mini was fastest as a combination of the track and weather slowed the Jag Mk2 down. At a higher speed track the Jag would beat the Mini as it has more power. At a medium track it was fairly balanced, either could win.

[Paul968]

How does your suggestion level out the drivers Tibernius?

[Tibernius]

How does your suggestion level out the drivers Tibernius?

They'd be sorted into groups the same way as before. If someone gets moved up a group they have to change car, but they don't get a penalty for it. If they get moved down a group they can either keep the current car or change to one in the new group without penalty. I haven't figured out how it could handle drivers joining partway through the season yet.

[Legzy]

How does your suggestion level out the drivers Tibernius?

They'd be sorted into groups the same way as before. If someone gets moved up a group they have to change car, but they don't get a penalty for it. If they get moved down a group they can either keep the current car or change to one in the new group without penalty. I haven't figured out how it could handle drivers joining partway through the season yet.

Nothing to figure out really Tibs, they would be put in a drivers group as per they are now & pick a car for the rest of the season like the other drivers in the group already did. They may or may not be promoted further down the line like you say.

The only thing i disliked about the current system was that it denied me the chance to race my favourite (not necessarily the quickest) cars at different circuits and/or sometimes i would put a few hours practise in only then to find my car was deemed too quick then moved into another group, which is fairly frustrating. The plus side of that was i got to try out cars that i might not normally have driven and found to my delight they were a real blast to race with.

I totally understand your frustrations on that MJ & am pleased you managed to take a positive view from it (of checking out new cars). But a change to the system (be it Paul's, Tibs or someone else's idea) will hopefully lessen the frustration for people.

Keep your ideas flowing in please guys

[Paul968]

OK, I see what you mean now. The main problem I think is that people like to try different cars in this fun league. Personally I don't want to get lumbered with just one slow car all season. It also makes it hard to find a subtle way to handicap drivers. Part of the problem with the current system is that there are only 4 groups. There is quite a difference between the fastest driver in a group and the slowest, but they all have the same cars to choose from. My idea allows us to have a much finers distinction between drivers - perhaps only an extra few points, which might mean a quicker car in just one race over a close rival.

[Mark J]

they werent really frustrations as such in the true sense of the word..more very mildly miffed in a huff and puff kind of way  i soon got over it 

The racings been great so far and the grids fantastically varied

[Legzy]

OK, I see what you mean now. The main problem I think is that....

It could be that we end up using a combination of the best bits of different peoples ideas (who knows).

One of the strengths of your idea for example Paul is the way the drivers could be split up. Four groups as you say does make each group quite diverse (the current Aliens group ranges for example, from yourself to 'one of my team mates'  ).
One of the strengths of Tibs idea is that it is very straight forward, you know where you stand & issues with not wanting to drive the same car all season long can be solved by having the equivalent of GT1 & GT2 category races. Effectively giving each driver four cars over the season, which might work out as three races in each car. But I guess it does mean the Aliens are being very limited in car choice with only above average cars available at best .

But I'm after everyone's ideas (even Goths ) & opinions at this point... so keep them coming  

[Paul968]

Another strength of my system is that it is sort of self-regulating. If you have to pick a car for the season, you may find it isn't that great for the tracks chosen. If you have a free choice you can select the cars that work best within your budget.

[Tibernius]

If you have to pick a car for the season, you may find it isn't that great for the tracks chosen.

Part of the idea behind mine (which I forgot to mention ) was that it would have a mix of all the types of track over the season, so all types of car would work. If it was, as Legzy mentioned, a 3-4 race season per car class, then we'd have say, Monza, Monaco and Donington, as an example.

[Phil Gilliland]

Even if you've not joined us for a single event, tell me why not 

Purely time constraints. I can't make Tuesdays, otherwise I'd be here.

[Legzy]

Even if you've not joined us for a single event, tell me why not 

Purely time constraints. I can't make Tuesdays, otherwise I'd be here.

Thank you Phil, good info. I happen to know you're not the only one in that boat.

[Blunder]

I guess I have a couple of comments!

1. I love PnG,...... I now.... (was gonna use the word hate ! but I wouldn't go that far!).... think we should drop GTL. Sooner the better!

2. Love the clubmans but appreciate the effort involved is not sustainable. My main concern always comes down to time.. or lack of it!
I always want a choice of car but do not have the time or inclination to test every car combination for every race! Give me a choice of 4 or 5 may be? per race and I am happy!

3. Anything that promotes close racing gets my vote!

4. For some strange reason I seem to have this love of poorly handling, over weight, over powered cars at the moment! Don't know where that has come from but please make sure I always have one of them!

You guys can have the roller skates!