Clubmans

[Mark J]

Paul ! 

[Paul968]

Yes, I'll do it if enough people want it to happen, but so far the response has been rather luke warm  

As I see it, we can either go back to a GTL style system, which will take no account of drivers and so spread the field out, or find a way to get a clubmans type system. All the alternatives suggested so far seem to have many of the same problems we already have - mainly that matching the car groups to the pace of the drivers in that group is very difficult. Any system which tries to create fixed groups at the start is doomed to failure IMO, as the groups will be seen as wrong within a couple of races (based on our experience so far). The reason for suggesting the new 'tokens' system was that it cannot suffer the same problems - drivers have a free choice within their budget and the whole thing will adjust automatically. It has the added benefits that there is a wide choice of cars available, which suits those who like variation, but allows people to run the same car all season if they like. I can't think of many people who this system would not work for - please say so if you feel that it doesn't work for you.

I also don't really understand why it is seen as complex? All drivers need to do is look at their budget, pick a car that fits that budget and race. You can do more if you want, but it won't change the racing that much. What is the problem with people saving a few points to have a good car in the odd race? Don't we all like our moment at the front? The GTL system is much the same - people accept slower cars and drive them for fun rather than results. This system lets them drive for fun and have it count as well! The GTL system though would mean that the field would be much more spread out. I personally have really enjoyed the mixed up races so far and I'd like to see them continue. It won't happen with the current system though because I'm not prepared any more to spend hours beforehand testing every car to be sure it is handicapped correctly (maybe someone else will, but they'd be mad IMO!).

[Blunder]

Good discussion, my vote goes to giving Paul's idea a go for 3 or 4 races!?


M.

[Wiltshire Tony]

Don't think the idea of setting up the required data for 50+ cars just so you can have "3 or 4 races" is going to be received that well. But I've been wrong before so who knows?

[Blunder]

I've seen Chris' pages of notes! 
Bet he and Paul could do a first draft reasonably quick!
Call it 10 cars for 4 races!? Whatever suits to give it a quick go!?
Just a thought!

M.

[Paul968]

To be honest there is already enough data available to put together a decent list. It won't have all the cars and I'm sure there would be a few anomolies, but it could serve as a starting point to test the idea. We can always tweak the values as we go along.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

[Ade]

Ill will be able to help out with any cars that need testing (what with no work on and nursing a busted little toe) i have a lot of time on my hands at the moment
I don't mind how its decided to be run (whatever takes the least amount of work for all involved will be good)
Am i right in thinking with Paul's idea if your not  fussed about the championship you can blow all your credits on some smart racing cars or do we have to stick within our budget for the season?

                                        I just wanna race P&G
                                                      Cheers Ade

[mr_oily]

Yeah I don't think it's so complex that I think we'll have trouble understanding or anything Paul - the point was really just that perhaps the extra legwork isn't necessary in a grid filled with a variety of very different cars. I actually don't know as we didn't run it for too long before giving Clubmans a bash. I'd quite like to see how it pans out naturally. Anyway i'll be there regardless and am happy to try various systems.

Just for my own curiosity, is a reverse grid an absolute non-starter!? A double header with some sort of reverse grid would be about as close as it gets although I have a feeling it isn't going to be doable. Dug this up where they seem to have botched something together but can't work out if it's a scripting thing or if they've actually had to change the tracks themselves - http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=6248&readme=1

[Paul968]

Am i right in thinking with Paul's idea if your not  fussed about the championship you can blow all your credits on some smart racing cars Grin or do we have to stick within our budget for the season?

I had assumed that people wouldn't do this as it isn't really cricket is it? The is no easy way to stop it though, so I think we can just ask drivers to abide by the spirit of the rules.

[Blunder]

                                        I just wanna race P&G
                                                      Cheers Ade

and Me !! 

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Tokens... I can't believe anyone's falling for it again...

All Paul's scheme does is turn the arbitrary driver classifications into arbitrary token allocations.

I had assumed that people wouldn't do this as it isn't really cricket is it? The is no easy way to stop it though, so I think we can just ask drivers to abide by the spirit of the rules.

Then it's pointless. You might as well just ask the faster drivers to not take the faster cars - it's just as likely to succeed and a heck of a lot less complex.

Once you've all switched to P&G we can send those cars through the UKGTR balancing processes...

[Paul968]

Tokens... I can't believe anyone's falling for it again...

All Paul's scheme does is turn the arbitrary driver classifications into arbitrary token allocations.

I knew you'd be along soon enough to mock Dave  There is a world of difference between this and the system used in UKGPL. Allocating drivers is a nightmare and hugely intensive. In an ideal world it would be fine, but it takes hours of effort for every single race, and you still get drivers complaining that this car or that driver is in the wrong group. The tokens system will take all that away and let the drivers take a car that suits them. It also lets us grade the drivers much more finely than the 4 groups we have used up to now.

Then it's pointless. You might as well just ask the faster drivers to not take the faster cars - it's just as likely to succeed and a heck of a lot less complex.

It's not pointless at all. If a driver wants to completely ignore the system and drive what they want, then a) they won't win the championship, b) they will probably have a lonely time up the front and c) everyone else will know it. The crowd here are pretty unlikely to do this, mainly because the league relies on trust and goodwill anyway.

Once you've all switched to P&G we can send those cars through the UKGTR balancing processes...

What - you mean let the AI drive them? It gets it badly wrong in some cases, although it isn't that far off most of the time.

[Ade]

Once you've all switched to P&G we can send those cars through the UKGTR balancing processes...

Don't you dare touch our lovely cars

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

I knew you'd be along soon enough to mock Dave 

I can't resist a good tokens war especially in a series where I'm not competing.

[...] you still get drivers complaining that this car or that driver is in the wrong group. The tokens system will take all that away and let the drivers take a car that suits them.

Unless it's all changed since your first post, your proposal was based around allocating initial token budgets based on ability. So what you'll get is drivers complaining that they've got too few tokens, or that somebody else has too many.

Once you've all switched to P&G we can send those cars through the UKGTR balancing processes...

What - you mean let the AI drive them? It gets it badly wrong in some cases, although it isn't that far off most of the time.

You're starting to sound like Clarkson. "The 370Z balancing system is clearly superior in all areas but I'd rather have the Z4 token system because I can't bring myself to admit it." Inevitably there's some continuous refinement required, and the introduction of new cars has thrown all the balls up in the air again, but it's worked very well in GTR2 where the classes are relatively close to start with.