Season 4 - The Plan

[Simon Gymer]

I look forward to next season, thanks Pops.

WARNING! It's hot and humid I have a headache and I'm going to be blunt regarding resets:

• If you get a brand new car everytime you fall off you're never going to learn to drive it without falling off.
• There is no reason why everyone that starts needs to finish.
• If you put in a lot of practice and don't want it to end prematurely because of the time you put in, try and drive as carefully as you need to to avoid that happening.
• Stop trying to go faster than you can and accept that you can go as fast as you can go. Some people are faster than others, deal with it.
• If you don't deserve to get to the end of the race then you don't deserve to get to the end of the race.
• If you want to get to the end of a race, do your best to avoid incident.
• Resets can give people the opportunity to gain positions they don't deserve to gain.
• If people just go into races expecting to be able to get a brand new car everytime they crash then less care is taken to drive within their limits and avoid contact with others.

[Legzy]

I look forward to next season (even more then Simon... in case that helps), thanks Pops.

WARNING! It's hot and humid and I'm shocked by the response of Simon, so I'm going to be blunt regarding his thoughtless comments:

What is your problem?

By the sound of it, you'd happily ban the ability in all SROUK SIM leagues for people to be able to pit & repair their cars?!

If you're an innocent party in a L1T1 incident & don't want to use the option of a reset available to you in a race Simon, great, bully for you, don't. It's your choice & I really don't care. You're choice either way will have next to zero impact on me.

Similarly, if I'm an innocent party in a L1T1 incident & I want to get as much out of the race as I can after putting in practice... great for me that I can still be part of our weekly "friendly community" race. My choice to continue after repairing my car, will have next to zero impact on you race or enjoyment of it, yet could make all the difference to my night.

We impose rules like no pitting on the 1st or last lap, I'd be happy to see a 'Resets only to be used in the 1st two laps' rule.

Chris

p.s. In future on hot days, I recommend staying out of the sun & drink plenty of water. But for now, take some paracetamol & get off your soap box.

[spanner]

Comment here are leading me to the conclusion that there is an element of elitism and snobbery in iRacing here. It seems to primarily cater for the faster drivers here and there is clearly a minimum speed to enter and arnt interesting a support those of us that are trying to learn and maybe trying to push to much to try and run a bit closer to those ahead.
People are clearly thinking too much about resets, trying to use them tactically. Wether i use it or not isnt going to affect anyone, and its obvious most people wouldn't use it anyway. People are clearly taking this all too seriously as it seems if you cant run up near the front and might end up after using nearly a lap back they they arnt interested. Some of us are trying hard and want to just make use of the practise we've done with people we can trust.

If people are holding up faster traffic who have used the rest then its their fault for not allowing them through, isnt that what the incident reports are for?

[Simon Gymer]

My problem is that I've driven in plenty of series where you can get a brand new car whenever you like and I've driven plenty of series where you get one shot. It is extremely apparent that the series you can reset and get a brand new car are driven far more carelessly than those without a reset. It's as simple as that.

If the game had damage repair for things that were repairable then great, but it doesn't at the moment. It has a choice between brand new car or not. If you allow resets you put into the mentality of every driver on the grid, whether they think it's there or not, the knowledge that they can have "one more go" and this increases the careless driving.

It's not about whether you get to carry on or not it's about reducing careless driving. It's a shame for "innocent parties", but there are only two options in this game at the moment and until there is damage repair of some sort, I would prefer to run in a series with no resets than one with resets. If Pops feels that the majority would prefer the other way then fine, I will race anyway, but it's not my preference.

I don't know where this thing about "people being held up by backmarkers" has come from. I agree some people are not interested in racing at all if they are not near the front, but that's up to them. I don't see how resets has got anything to do with that.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Comment here are leading me to the conclusion that there is an element of elitism and snobbery in iRacing here. It seems to primarily cater for the faster drivers here and there is clearly a minimum speed to enter and arnt interesting a support those of us that are trying to learn and maybe trying to push to much to try and run a bit closer to those ahead.

It's nothing to do with snobbery, Spanner - it's the same thing we've been saying for years about persistent overdriving, specifically:
You do not learn to go faster by falling off all the time.
All you do is learn how to fall off a lot. We all fall off from time to time when we're pushing the limits, but slower drivers need to understand that the key to more speed is the ability to recognise the messages the car is sending and react to them before they become an off. If one falls off all the time it's because one is trying to push far too far beyond one's abilities far too quickly.

Practice sessions (even online one before qualifying sessions) are the appropriate place to push the limits a little bit in an attempt to expand the envelope. A race itself is not; pushing the envelope to the point of falling off in a race will result in more than just poor finishes - it will result in upsetting the other drivers who get caught up in the mess.

My problem is that I've driven in plenty of series where you can get a brand new car whenever you like and I've driven plenty of series where you get one shot. It is extremely apparent that the series you can reset and get a brand new car are driven far more carelessly than those without a reset. It's as simple as that.

Correlation does not equal causality. It's no use comparing reset/no reset official series in iRacing because the reset series are also the ones with all the low SR/rookie drivers, so by definition there will be more incidents there. When I enter a R/D/C race in iRacing I know the driving is going to be a lot more random than in a B/A/Pro race.

It's arguable that if they took resets away from D series, some people would learn to drive better. But until tows are implemented we'll not know.

[spanner]

Exactly, its those continual comments about overdriving that get up my nose and just serve create that divide. We all drive differently, if you want to try and help people, be more constructive.

How am i supposed to go faster without trying different lines, braking later, taking more speed through the corner etc without trying to push my envelope.

One of the few arguments against resets if seen i think came out of a skippy/ Lime rock race. A group of people used the reset, ended up racing each other and then the leaders  try and come through. The leaders expect them to jump out the way, they carry on racing and they have to try and pick their way through.

[Darren Seal]

How am i supposed to go faster without trying different lines, braking later, taking more speed through the corner etc without trying to push my envelope.

No one is saying you shouldn't try these things.  However, a race is not the place to try something new.

[Darren Seal]

Comment here are leading me to the conclusion that there is an element of elitism and snobbery in iRacing here.

This is simply not true.

I have no problems with inexperienced drivers using resets.  My problem is with fast reckless drivers using resets.

There is nothing worse than seeing some bone head trying to win a race on lap one, take out several other drivers, reset, and then several laps later is breathing down your neck.

I don't think any of us can be classed as 'inexperienced'.  We all have several simracing seasons under our belts.  That's why I'm against resets here!!!

[Legzy]

So with that in mind Darren, how do you feel about having a reset & having faith in SROUK's moderation to wheedle out that kind of offender? I have faith.

I think you'll likely find that the people who are keen for a reset (from what I've read), are likely us slow coaches at the back of the grid (myself, Spanner, Picnic) every race we take part in. We know our place & while we'd like to be quicker, we're not. We tend to be on TS together & enjoy the race as a special occasion, to be enjoyed. If something happens & I need to repair early on, I can still feel part of that, gain some extra 'competitive' track time & hopefully enjoy it to the end. (Obviously that all goes out the window in a Skippy )

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

How am i supposed to go faster without trying different lines, braking later, taking more speed through the corner etc without trying to push my envelope.

You can do all that without falling off all the time, especially now that iRacing has the split timing built in. Learning to read the car whilst making small adjustments to lines, braking points and so on is the route to improvement - not flying in a gear higher and wondering why it didn't stick, and especially not when the race is already underway.

One of the few arguments against resets if seen i think came out of a skippy/ Lime rock race. A group of people used the reset, ended up racing each other and then the leaders  try and come through. The leaders expect them to jump out the way, they carry on racing and they have to try and pick their way through.

I don't see what that had to do with resets. As I recall the issue was with slower drivers in identical cars to the faster drivers who were lapping them not really understanding that it's not like being lapped by a faster class of car. That situation has nothing to do with resets.

[Darren Seal]

So with that in mind Darren, how do you feel about having a reset & having faith in SROUK's moderation to wheedle out that kind of offender? I have faith.

Once the incident has happened it's too late.  It doesn't matter what the punishment handed out by the moderation team is, someone's race/evening/championship has been ruined.

I'm in favour of anything that might stop the incidents from happening in the first place.  I feel the fear of GAME OVER is a useful deterrent.

You and Spanner seem to be obsessed by speed.  Speed is not the issue here!  Slow, fast, Alien - we all must learn to drive within our skill limits while racing for the sake of others on the track.

[Paul968]

Legzy obsessed by speed? Much as the contradiction made me snigger (sorry Chris  ) I don't read that in anything he's said?

I don't think most of us (reset supporters) want a reset as a 2nd chance fro making a silly mistake. We want it in case you end up out of the race due to someone else's mistake. How about saying that taking the tow was only allowed after contact with another car? Or even ask drivers to only use it if they felt that the mistake was not theirs? Since this is not about fairness (because a tow is already a big penalty) it doesn't matter so much if the rule relies on drivers to do the decent thing.

[Darren Seal]

Legzy obsessed by speed? Much as the contradiction made me snigger (sorry Chris  ) I don't read that in anything he's said?

I don't think most of us (reset supporters) want a reset as a 2nd chance fro making a silly mistake. We want it in case you end up out of the race due to someone else's mistake. How about saying that taking the tow was only allowed after contact with another car? Or even ask drivers to only use it if they felt that the mistake was not theirs? Since this is not about fairness (because a tow is already a big penalty) it doesn't matter so much if the rule relies on drivers to do the decent thing.

Erm, Legzy calls himself 'slow' and Spanner seems to think he needs to 'push to envelope' to keep up with the faster guys...  For the record I think both Legzy and Spanner are gentleman drivers, and are probably only a danger to their selves.

While I like the idea of a "2nd chance" for victims and non contact incidents, the system you are proposing would be difficult to manage and would give the moderation team far more work to do...

Plus like I said above, after the incident it's too late.  A reset means your race and maybe even your championship (if you are fast enough) has probably been ruined....

I prefer prevention rather than cure...

  

[Legzy]

Sorry Darren, I wouldn't have mentioned my speed, but I was responding to your comment:

My problem is with fast reckless drivers using resets.

[Darren Seal]

Sorry Darren, I wouldn't have mentioned my speed, but I was responding to your comment:

My problem is with fast reckless drivers using resets.

Don't worry mate, you are nowhere on my Fast Reckless Drivers List

I hope I haven't offended you or Spanner by my posts, it was not my intention.

It's just that the only arguments for bringing back Resets so far have been based on personal benefit, not the for the benefit of the group...

On that note I'll end my discussion on this topic before I upset anyone else.