Season 4 - The Plan

[Paul968]

While I like the idea of a "2nd chance" for victims and non contact incidents, the system you are proposing would be difficult to manage and would give the moderation team far more work to do...

Since this is not about making the result fair, it could be done as a code of conduct and so not require any moderation. Obviously if drivers were ignoring it on a regular basis then something might need to be done, but I would hope this was not necessary here.

It's just that the only arguments for bringing back Resets so far have been based on personal benefit, not the for the benefit of the group...

Any system has to balance the needs of the individual against the needs of the group. The rule is clearly there for the group, so obviously those against it are going to think it is not good for them personally. So far the only evidence put forward that resets are bad is personal opinion, and all of that is based on systems which are quite different to iRacing. I think Legzy is closest - the iRacing system is not too far from the GTR2 one, where damage costs you a lot of time but can often be repaired. Since everyone has been happy with that, why make iRacing even harder?

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

So far the only evidence put forward that resets are good is personal opinion,

Fixed that for ya.

For those clamouring for resets, here's another question: how many resets do you want?

[Paul968]

Sorry Dave, but it is easy to show that no resets are bad - If you get taken out and your race ended, your evening's fun is over, and many drivers have experienced that. The case that no resets reduce incidents though is far from clear and nobody has produced any evidence to show it. I tend to agree that in GPL it was too easy to overdrive and shift R when it all went wrong, but here it takes so long that having to take a tow is already a big deterent to crashing. Even when we had tows, many drivers opted not to use it anyway.

I think 1 tow is plenty.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Sorry Dave, but it is easy to show that no resets are bad - If you get taken out and taken outforced to reset, your evening's fun is over, and many drivers have experienced that.

Fixed that again.

I think 1 tow is plenty.

Then you're arguing that it's 'okay' to get taken out once, but if you get taken out again you shouldn't be allowed to rejoin, even if neither was your fault? I don't see that there's any logical argument for that... and I expected 'one' to be the answer.

[Paul968]

Eh? If you can reset your evening's fun is not over, assuming you don't mind being near the back.

Then you're arguing that it's 'okay' to get taken out once, but if you get taken out again you shouldn't be allowed to rejoin, even if neither was your fault? I don't see that there's any logical argument for that... and I expected 'one' to be the answer. Wink

Frankly I don't care if the number was unlimited, but I would be surprised if many people thought more than 1 was necessary. I'm just trying to strike a balance between the 2 groups, hence the idea of a code of conduct to say 'don't reset if you know you codded up'.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

it takes so long that having to take a tow

Eh? If you can reset your evening's fun is not over, assuming you don't mind being near the back.

You're not "near the back" though unless a whole bunch of people reset at the same time. Normally you're a lap down and nowhere near anybody else, in which case you might as well go practise off line. In the Late Model.

Frankly I don't care if the number was unlimited, but I would be surprised if many people thought more than 1 was necessary. I'm just trying to strike a balance between the 2 groups, hence the idea of a code of conduct to say 'don't reset if you know you codded up'.

You should know from UKGPL how often "took a reset but wasn't entitled to it" comes up... (Or have you all got better now?) It's hardly ever the drivers fault when they have to reset... at least in the heat of the moment.

[Paul968]

You're not "near the back" though unless a whole bunch of people reset at the same time. Normally you're a lap down and nowhere near anybody else, in which case you might as well go practise off line. In the Late Model.

If drivers want it, who are you to tell them they can't have it just because you don't? Yes, some see little point, but others would like the chance to stay in the race. I'd probably quit most of the time, but if enough people want a reset then I see no reason to tell them they don't know what they want.

You should know from UKGPL how often "took a reset but wasn't entitled to it" comes up... (Or have you all got better now?)

UKGPL was totally different as a reset was instant. Drivers were able to gain by pushing too hard and the reseting. This is nothing like that - a tow puts you out of contention almost straight away, so there is no need to make it a rule. Just ask drivers to only take a tow if they felt that they were not to blame. If a few ignored this then it wouldn't be the end of the world as they wouldn't really gain very much if anything.

It's hardly ever the drivers fault when they have to reset... at least in the heat of the moment.

Not true - drivers frequently chuck it into the barriers on their own. Who else's fault is that going to be?

[Colin Paxton]

I recall that if you did a reset in UKGPL you HAD to do a stop and go or else the Moderators would get you!

Sorry Paul, meant to say - if you slid into the barrier on your own etc

[Paul968]

In UKGPL you had the choice of electing not to stop if you felt that you were not to blame. If the mods assessed that you were to blame (to some extent at least) then you were given a post race time penalty. This was clearly more work for the mods, but would not be needed here.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

It's hardly ever the drivers fault when they have to reset... at least in the heat of the moment.

Not true - drivers frequently chuck it into the barriers on their own. Who else's fault is that going to be?

The cat's? The weather? Dodgy pedals? I've heard it all.

Moderating races is already hard work - we've just about managed to get the incidents back under control to the point where the mods aren't having to jump through hoops to police things; we're not about to add "you can reset but only if you've not been naughty and we're checking so watch out" back into the mix.

If the only reason to have resets is because people are getting knocked off by other people, we have a more fundamental problem than needing resets. How many resetted races are people willing to take before they get fed up and quit racing? Not many I'll wager. If they consider it 'normal' we're back to another more fundamental problem...

[nsfast]

I'm enjoying this debate.

But to be honest reading the tone of some of the earlier comments has put me off resuming my iracing career in season 4. 

[popabawa]

Sorry I'm a bit late back into the discussion.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the call to re-introduce resets.

My feeling is that some drivers used the reset as a bit of crutch and ended up overdriving as a result. I can't prove that but that's my feeling.

I do accept that this isn't ideal for the guys who drive fairly, end up wanting to reset and just want to get back out on track and finish the race but I have to make a call.

It's really not that hard to avoid other cars and stay on track for the entire race. If I can do it, anyone can.... (and if you can't then you need to practice more).

[Paul968]

Moderating races is already hard work - we've just about managed to get the incidents back under control to the point where the mods aren't having to jump through hoops to police things; we're not about to add "you can reset but only if you've not been naughty and we're checking so watch out" back into the mix.

Did you read what I said Dave? I am not suggesting the mods do anything extra. You just 'ask' drivers to do the decent thing and retire if they were to blame. If they don't then they will still have lost out big time so they won't have gained from overdriving, but I think the vast majority here will abide by a code of conduct like this.

If the only reason to have resets is because people are getting knocked off by other people, we have a more fundamental problem than needing resets. How many resetted races are people willing to take before they get fed up and quit racing? Not many I'll wager. If they consider it 'normal' we're back to another more fundamental problem...

We have had numerous incidents despite the no-resets rule, including one race where a good proportion of the field were taken out because of an unfortunate mistake by a very experienced driver. On the other hand, there is no evidence to show that resets make the standards worse.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

I am not suggesting the mods do anything extra. You just 'ask' drivers to do the decent thing and retire if they were to blame.

Why not just cut out the 'middle man' and ask them not to crash into each other?

[Paul968]

Because nobody intends to crash, so it happens anyway.