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  • S20N Zeltweg: October 26, 2010
October 26, 2010, 09:41:33 PM +0100 - Zeltweg - UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Novices Trophy (65)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Artiglietti
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 1 1:51.823
---
1 45:22.871
---
24 1:52.453
---
Dunlop  
NHance
 Mountside Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 2 +0.086
---
2 +32.276
---
24 1:53.219
---
Goodyear  
Ronniepeterson
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 5 +1.694
---
3 +54.888
---
24 1:53.704
---
Dunlop  
Ross Neilson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 4 +1.502
---
4 (+3) +56.164
---
24 1:54.134
---
Goodyear  
miner2049er
 Clark-Hill Racing
Cooper T77 (Climax) F1 1965 9 +2.205
---
5 +59.048
---
24 1:54.668
---
Dunlop  
il_lupo_mannaro
 
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 3 +1.148
---
6 (+3) +1:00.701
---
24 1:53.079
---
Dunlop  
roguk
 Clark-Hill Racing
Cooper T77 (Climax) F1 1965 7 +1.934
---
7 +1:01.397
---
24 1:53.675
---
Dunlop  
happyal
 Clark-Hill Racing
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 6 +1.807
---
8 +1:25.031
---
24 1:54.871
---
Dunlop  
Nigel Smith
 HikiWazaRacing
Honda RA272 F1 1965 11 +2.218
---
9 +1:28.260
---
24 1:53.462
---
Goodyear  
norbert
 Antipasti Racing
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 10 +2.217
---
10 +1:43.418
---
24 1:54.300
---
Dunlop  
blito
 Nessuna Speranza
Ferrari 512 F1 1965 12 +2.611
---
11 +1L
---
23 1:54.264
---
Dunlop  
BadBlood
 HikiWazaRacing
Honda RA272 F1 1965 14 +3.920
---
12 +2L
---
22 1:58.294
---
Goodyear  
maddog
 
Cooper T77 (Climax) F1 1965 13 +2.633
---
13 +14L
---
10 1:56.518
---
Dunlop  
karlisss
 
Honda RA272 F1 1965 8 +2.182
---
14 (+1) +15L
---
9 1:54.860
---
Goodyear  
5 UKGPL
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 15 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Zeltweg proved a popular choice and the recent update made it a reliable choice that will no doubt return.

The long straights suited some more than others, and some decided to make them a little more exciting by changing their line along them, but did they do it in a sporting manner within the rules? The thick plottens......

There were some great and close battles up towards the front with several drivers running in close proximity, but did it all stay as friendly as it looked?


Server replay time: 0h01m00s

This incident starts on the approach to T1 as karliss gets on the grass on the inside of the braking zone, he then strays across track and is lucky not to collect anybody as he veers all the way across track through T1.
He then touches the grass on the outside but does not lose control and begins to move back across to the right.
He can hear cars around him but not see them and he strays towards Blito who moves right to avoid him and in the process collects Nigel Smith.
Blito could hear a Honda but may have assumed it was Karliss not Nigel who could only briefly be seen in his mirrors at 0h01m04s.
Karliss points out that he did not make contact with Blito on his replay, and nor did he on the server replay, but this is not a case of making contact or not.

The incident could have been prevented by either Karliss sticking to his own side of the track or Nigel Smith backing out of his overtake, but I feel it would be harsh to penalise Nigel even though this is a Lap 1 T1 incident where we always ask drivers to take extra care and not attempt a pass unless they can make it cleanly. I think it was reasonable for Nigel to assume that both Karliss and Blito would stick to their lines and leave his line clear.

I would offer advice to Karliss that it is important to stick to your own side of the track and not move across unless you are sure that it is clear, perhaps even using the side view where possible. This is particularly important in Lap 1 Turn 1 incidents where the cars are bunched together, and as he had already swept from one side of the track to the other already.

  • karlissswarning — Marginal Side by Side — also, 1 place lost for penalty points


Server replay time: 0h01m20s

Fabio enters Dr Tiroch kurve much faster than AlBaldwin in front of him, and though Al leaves room on the inside Fabio slides outwards into him.
Neither driver had lost control, Fabio just did not allow Al enough room.


Server replay time: 0h01m55s

BadBlood approaches the accident between MHunt and Karliss, and despite slowing on seeing the incident occurring he has nowhere to go and hits MHunt
Racing Incident

Advice: After such a big collision on lap1 when resetting fuel and tyres won't matter too much, had I been BadBlood I would have taken a free SHIFT R as he was blameless.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h03m10s

MHunt and Fabio both take a Stop n Go at the same time and this demonstrates the importance of taking a Stop n Go in the correct place, i.e. within half a car width of the stalls as neither driver was impeded by the other.

Advice for all.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h05m37s

Ross loses control in Bosch Kurve and NHance spins in sympathy and blocks the track as Ronnie approaches.
Despite seeing the spin and slowing down Ronnie has nowhere to go and hits NHance
Mike sees the incident and slows but has nowhere to go as Ronnie sets off in front of him.
All of these are racing incidents though Ronnie should have been aware he was heading back on to the racing line.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h09m20s

Blito and Karliss meet at T1 again
Karliss has a spin on his own and Blito hits him as he straddles the track.
Blito slows and aims towards the inside expecting Karliss to continue to slide outwards but the 2 collide.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h12m15s

MHunt takes a SHIFT R with no Stop n Go.

He later retires while in the pit lane so I will offset this ommission.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h15m15s

Gilles27 moves twice and blocks RogUK as he attempts a pass.


Server replay time: 0h16m00s

Gilles27 moves and blocks RogUK as he attempts a pass.


Server replay time: 0h31m40s

BadBlood is being lapped by Nigel Smith and the 2 collide and spin.
BadBlood had already let lappers through and knew Nigel was there but lost control exiting Schikane and in correcting his slide he moved across the centre line.

Had BadBlood not been out of control this incident would have been penalised, but as it was caused by his loss of control which we do not generally punish, it is a Racing Incident with advice to be extra careful when being lapped.

BadBlood took a Stop n Go for this incident but did not need to.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h43m10s

Ronnie makes a move across the track to break the tow he would be giving to Ross
1 move off the line and 1 move on to the line again.

See my final comments below.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h44m00s

0h10m30s Gilles27 drives down centre of track
0h13m10s Gilles27 drives down centre of track forcing roguk to lift and back out of attempted pass
0h14m05s Gilles27 drives down centre of track
0h14m20s Gilles27 drives down centre of track
0h15m05s Gilles27 drives down centre of track
0h41m15s Gilles27 drives down centre of track

While not covered under UKGPL rules, this is covered under our etiquette guidelines as below:

"Persistent driving down the centreline of the track in order to make passing difficult is not acceptable. The moderators will take a sensible approach in enforcing this; the idea is to stop blatant centre line driving, not penalise every possible case. For most drivers this rule should make racing safer as well as more fun."

These incidents will be unpunished in this instance as the driver has accrued penalties elsewhere which are deemed sufficient, but centre line driving will be punished in the future for any driver.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h44m00s

0h12m10s Gilles27 takes unusual line but sticks to it
0h40m20s Gilles27 takes unusual line but sticks to it

These two incidents are Gilles27 moving off the racing line and taking an unusual line but sticking to it to either break tow or defend a line into a corner. These incidents are fine and are allowed providing the leading driver moves before the following driver and does not block.

0h08m30s Gilles27 attempts to break tow
0h12m30s Gilles27 attempts to break tow

See my final comments below

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h45m00s

FINAL COMMENTS

These comments relate to drivers moving off the racing line once and moving back onto the racing line once on the same section of track.

While not technically against the rules, and while permitted in real world racing, we have debated the issue in the past and will no doubt do so again, but the risk of doing this in online racing is greater than in real world racing as the end result is that the car following also moves across track to stay in the tow, then the next car moves to stay in his tow etc etc
So the end result is a line of cars weaving across the track on the straight, so nobody ends up managing to break a tow at all, and this is potentially inviting warp incidents and makes planning a clean overtake very difficult and unnecessarily risky.

Obviously there is a difference between weaving to break a tow, weaving and blocking, the latter 2 being against UKGPL rules.

The moderators will view each tow breaking incident on its own merits and there is no rule to ban it as such, but I would strongly recommend that the Novices drivers respect each other enough to race in as clean a manner as possible and to race in a gentlemanly and sporting manner.

  • Racing incident

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Novices Trophy (65) - Zeltweg (Österreichring) - Oct 26  (Read 11456 times)
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miner2049er
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2010, 05:49:37 PM +0100 »

Phsycic Norm profisies that it will all be much closer & the experienced Cooper drivers will show what they can do. Personally my PB in a BT11 is only ½ second faster than my Cooper PB so think what they'll be like!.

Early outings have been less than a second slower in the Cooper and I will probably get to a similar time, but I haven't driven Zandvoort in 65s since season 18 so my Lotus time might not be that great anyway.

In the Cooper I'm actually faster in the first sector but overall the car feels good though,
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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2010, 06:14:19 PM +0100 »

The slowest time for the last novice outing at Zaandvoort is 1:35.4 - I can do 1:37.3 so stop whingeing about 1/2 a second here or there or whether you have a Cooper or a Lotus - I only think it fair for you lot to give me a lap start - otherwise I am never going to get a race... <sigh> <sigh again>
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« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2010, 09:48:11 PM +0100 »

Bad Blood - If you think you could blow an engine its not always over revving. Look at the postings for season 19 Mosport.

Some Novices had been blowing engines, not just at Mosport & Evil Clive put a posting on this race with at least one common reason why this can happen & how to avoid it. Apparantly he learnt this the hard way but passed it on to us free of charge. Its a good tip - worth a read.

Norm H
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« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2010, 10:15:10 PM +0100 »

Thanks Norm. TBH I wasn't worried about blowing an engine - just read somewhere that the torque was 90% if the revs were between 9 and 11,000. Mind you Torque could be 120% and I would still be driving it like a milk float Sad
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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2010, 10:21:04 PM +0100 »

That's only the case with the 67 Honda, the 65 beast can go up to 13k on overrun.
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2010, 12:01:06 AM +0100 »

Ah - my mistake. Thanks. The thing I am really struggling with is carrying speed through the corners - if I go in too fast I just spin so follow the mantra slow in fast out - understood but I am having to go so slow that it compromises my exit speed. I'm still driving it like a road car - I am finding it really hard to drive it 'on the edge' and carry the speed.
At Zeltweg, I practised a lot (for me) and I set a PB in qually - tried to drive within myself during the race to race myself but my best was 1:58+ - v. disappointed with myself - I was really concerned with keeping out of the way of the leaders and I STILL took somebody out - tried to brake a bit hard to let Nigel through. Wheel upshifted and I slid into him. Hoping I wont get a penalty but I probably will. At this rate I'll be banned Sad
How many penalty points constitutes a ban?
On a brighter note, I seem to have fixed my wheel with some percussive maintenance  Grin Enabled me to set a PB at Zandvoort only 10 secs off pole.  Huh I may not even race this one if I can't get to 107% - i.e 1:35.9 or so going by who is racing novices and results from season 18  :'(
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 12:05:27 AM +0100 by BadBlood » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2010, 01:56:59 AM +0100 »

By driving it like a road car you mean you're controlling it more with the steering wheel than with the pedals? To carry speed into corners you really need to practice and focus on using the steering wheel only to set the initial direction by turning-in once, then 99% of the job is done with the pedals.

Trail-braking is the key on entry, so you can keep decelerating while turning-in. You need to turn-in earlier than what you probably do now, so the car can drift as it decelerates. Then you have to recognize the moment when it's about to grip and stop drifting, and continue the drift with the throttle, towards the apex.

Until you can do these techniques it's pointless to look after lap times and drive consistently. You need a change in habits and technique, nothing else, so practice hard on that. It's probably going to take weeks of hard work, but there's no other way. You have to forget about anything else such as comparing lap times to others, those things come naturally as a consequence when you improve your driving techniques.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 02:05:17 AM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2010, 02:09:13 AM +0100 »

Thanks for that H. I will try and be a worthy Waza.  angel Tough though.  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2010, 02:38:24 AM +0100 »

Thanks for that H. I will try and be a worthy Waza.  angel Tough though.  Wink

As long as you wish for it, it only takes hard work. It depends what you really want, but know that there's no pressure from Waza on performance - it's all up to you. Just remember when you start winning - ALL YOUR VICTORIES ARE BELONG TO HER!!!  Grin
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« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2010, 08:28:55 AM +0100 »

Thanks for that Tim - I read somewhere you had to keep revs between 9 and 11 - i'll try it out.

That might be more relevant for the 67 Honda!!!


If you can get on to the practice server in the next few days and we happen to meet up, I will ride "in car" with you and maybe give a few pointers. Meanwhile try reading ( and maybe even understand Roll Eyes ) this https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8557.msg151511;boardseen#new  description of a lap as I would drive it in the Cooper. I make no claim to it being the perfect lap or the ultimate line etc but it might just show you where you can shave a few seconds.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 08:37:09 AM +0100 by EvilClive » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2010, 05:15:05 PM +0100 »

Thanks Clive - away with the mini bloods until Sunday evening but I hope to catch up with you shortly after.
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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2010, 09:52:51 PM +0000 »

Race Mod published.

Some good bits, some bad bits.

I would ask that all drivers read it and not just the Novices as it has some important points to bear in mind.
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« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2010, 05:04:24 AM +0000 »

Race Mod published.

Some good bits, some bad bits.

I would ask that all drivers read it and not just the Novices as it has some important points to bear in mind.

Great moderation, Mike. I totally agree on your points about weaving, as long as it's separated from defensive driving (which depends on how close the car behind is).

I would like to point out something about driving the center line though. As long as the car doesn't weave to block and keeps the center line, it shouldn't be a big issue. I would call it defensive driving. Imagine in particular someone doing it in the final laps in battle for the win (or any position really), I think it's reasonable that they should be allowed to drive more defensively if someone threatens them from behind and holding a center line is one way to do it (remember Monaco 92 last 2 laps, Senna vs. Mansell).
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« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2010, 07:45:15 AM +0000 »

Phew - relieved not to have picked up any more penalty points! Nigel must have been kind to me. Luckily I didn't ruin his race and the Stop and Go enabled me to let a few more past safely  Roll Eyes. As for taking the free Stop and Go at the start - I thought I'd got away with it but my gear selector wasn't working properly so that by the time I Shift-R'ed I got 'Track is not clear'. Dead last - end of race.

Practiced hard for that one and got within four seconds of pole and then drove appallingly.

The thing I am finding hardest (apart from the driving, obviously) is the level of concentration required. If I practice, I do four or five laps at most. Largely due to time constraints but the race is hard. Witness my performance in the Ring where I was aiming for 11 mins (I know - don't laugh) and I did 12:09 twice Sad When I crashed it was at an innocuous bit of the circuit purely down to lack of focus. Mind you my laptop display turning off twice didn't help!
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2010, 07:55:29 AM +0000 »

Great moderation and sorry again to anyone (Nhance/Mike) who I might have hit or impeded when I was setting off again. See you tonight.
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