iRacing Sunday Night Enduro?

[Darren Seal]

The counter point is that changing cars has not solved the problems when we've done it 3 times already, people turn up to races with little or no practice and then ask for changes. Each time we've changed and the same thing happens.

Maybe changing the car in the past wasn't the best way to go.  But it only done to 'try' to increase attendance.  Judging by the current lack of drivers in the Radical series it is clear it's not a popular choice amongst the majority here.  Therefore, it would be foolish in my opinion to continue with this car. 

SRouk has always done mixed class GT1/GT2-3 endurance racing.  It's time to go back to what SRouk does best.  The Vette and Mustang will work well together and I'm looking forward to it.

[Don]

I think we all want the same thing and that is for Srouk to be able to run a successful and populated series with iRacing.
I personally think Adam has done the right thing in going about changing everything in order to try give it a new lease of life here. He did ask us (Pops) for some advice and rightly so as he's had the most experience trying to run the series up til now.
Unfortunately I won't be able to run the full series, but it's the closest we have got to the old GTR Endurance format, and IMHO should give some great racing.
We should all try get behind this series and make it a sucess or iRacing here will be a thing of the past.
Sharks right about the dictatorship thing, just try run a series with polls and see what happens!

[Paul Thurston]

I'm in no way belittling the efforts Adam will have to put in or those Pops did though I knew I'd be accused of it.  I paid my dues over several years as a moderator back in the UKGPL days when I spent hours on the train watching through races then having to justify penalties in long email exchanges with drivers who thought using their Ferrari as a battering ram was a legitimate overtaking technique.

No league can be ruled by concensus, someone needs to make the decisions.  Like Simon though I believe it needs to be a dictatorshop based on listening to the views of the members.  Pops always did that very well I thought.

This decision has been made offline from the discussions we've been having and appears to bear little or no relation to those discussions.  The only real differences from the current setup are the race length and the cars.  The specific car combination isn't one available in iRacing, true but both the Mustang and the Corvette are very well served so I wouldn't say the new series is particularly distinctive.  Neither car pulls my cord which doesn't help.

Endurance racing is a minority sport.  I applaud the efforts to try and bring people in using PMs and the like, that may work and I'll help where I can but it doesn't solve the problem of drivers not being capable of finishing races and lengthening them will make it worse.  You might have 20 starters but on current form unless you allow multiple resets you'll have single digit finishers and the non finishers won't stick around for long.

We need to be encouraging practice so more people finish.  Instead of a single practice session the day before, why not run a few short races using the combination in the week leading up?  That gives people an incentive to try the combination and they'd be far better prepared when the long race comes round on the Sunday.

To reiterate, I applaud Adam for taking this on, it's a thankless task.  Don't expect me though to sit here and say nothing if I disagree.

Paul

[Brendan]

Polls or no polls, the fact remains that people will vote with their feet.

I must admit the idea of endurance races, every fortnight, in cars I don't fancy, doesn't really float my boat but I'll give it a go anyway for the good of the league, and keep my fingers crossed that I draw enough fun out of it to keep me coming back.  That said, I do appreciate the effort that Adam is making and in the absence of any real alternative, I don't really have a leg to stand on when it comes to making a critique.

However, I will say that I am disappointed at the lack of open-wheel action and I'm surprised that there seems such a desire for endurance racing.  Is there really that much of a clamour for 90 minute races, and are they the golden ticket when it comes to attracting more drivers.

[Adam Parle]

Believe me - I've taken on board everything that has been said ... but there has been no consensus of opinion, and as such I didn't and don't have an issue going the way I feel led to.  The decision to run with the cars was mine, and it's an attempt to bring the UKiR races back closer to the successful seasons we had in UKGTR before we diversified into umpteen different sims.

Endurance racing might be a niche product - but is it that much of a niche that with some effort we can't secure the necessary number of drivers to make it a success?  I don't believe that the path I've set us to follow is a futile one ... but I've only got my personal oppinion on that matter for the time being.

Brendan - in my mind the open wheel cars are better suited to sprint events, and this thread was always about a Sunday endurance race.  Whilst none of the cars in iRacing are particularly robust, the open wheelers are more liable to pick up enough damage to prevent drivers finishing races.  I also feel that the car choice is limited - in that the FW31 would present too much of a challenge to people, and the numbers would suffer, and the Skip Barbers lack of power would lead to ill advised overtaking maneuvers and subsequently more incidents than I would deem acceptable.  I believe this to be true in a sprint series, and in a series with longer races I believe these problems would be compounded.

Personally I'd love to return to racing the Skippy - but that was never part of this picture, as the intention was to return to our roots, endurance racing in GT cars.



With regards to the points - I've no intention of changing a long standing scoring method.  Ultimatley I'm never going to be challenging for the title, I'll be a bit part player in the team championship, but I will certainly have a good go at beating Pops and other drivers of a comparable standard.  The guys at the sharp end - they will lose out if they miss a race/have a bad race, and as far as I am concerned that is the way it should be.

Concerns aside - I do hope as many of you as possible can make these events, I'm personally looking forward to a return to the format, and I hope and believe other folk will too.

[Darren Seal]

Brendan - The purpose of this thread is to discuss the NEW proposed Sunday time slot, where we intend to do Endurance racing.  As far as I'm aware nothing has been decided regarding Tuesday nights.  If there is still demand for it, and also someone willing to organise it, there is no reason why open-wheel sprint racing can't continue as usual.  I've really enjoyed the Star Mazda series this season and if it were to continue next season, you can count me in. 

[Darren Seal]

I applaud the efforts to try and bring people in using PMs and the like, that may work and I'll help where I can but it doesn't solve the problem of drivers not being capable of finishing races and lengthening them will make it worse.  You might have 20 starters but on current form unless you allow multiple resets you'll have single digit finishers and the non finishers won't stick around for long.

Paul, if people can't finish a simple 40 minute sprint, I would advise that they stay away from these Endurance races, it's not for them.  You seem to suggest that their finishing problems are due to lack of practise.  Well, the schedules are posted well in advance and there is even a practise session hosted the night before a race.  There really is no excuse!  Anyway, I don't believe 'lack of practise' is the problem.  The majority of DNFs are caused by people 'over-driving' or by people taking big risks when overtaking.  Are you saying we should reward these drivers by tailoring our series to suit them?

We need to be encouraging practice so more people finish.  Instead of a single practice session the day before, why not run a few short races using the combination in the week leading up?  That gives people an incentive to try the combination and they'd be far better prepared when the long race comes round on the Sunday.

Unfortunately more hosted sessions = more cost.  We barely get enough donations to cover existing costs...

[picnic]

Paul, if people can't finish a simple 40 minute sprint, I would advise that they stay away from these Endurance races, it's not for them.  You seem to suggest that their finishing problems are due to lack of practise.  Well, the schedules are posted well in advance and there is even a practise session hosted the night before a race.  There really is no excuse!  Anyway, I don't believe 'lack of practise' is the problem.  The majority of DNFs are caused by people 'over-driving' or by people taking big risks when overtaking.  Are you saying we should reward these drivers by tailoring our series to suit them?

Make it too hard core and you'll guarantee low attendance. The slower you are (read me) the more chance you'll be at the back of the pack. Practice or not. Someone can have a simple spin in front of you on a busy 1st lap and often as not, as soon as I'm out of my limited comfort zone, I'll crash in sympathy. If that happens at all regularly and I get no reward for my 2 weeks of practice (theory if not reality) why would I bother?

[Fred Basset]

OK I'm clearly not getting my point across here and it looks like a number of you have decided I'm whining, not being constructive and am being critical of Adam. So lets have another go with some observations.

i) I am being critical of one thing only that Adam has done, whilst I actually agree with the bi weekly format and it was one thing I was hoping for to help save my participation here the way it was acheived is not acceptable. Having a quick debate with Dave and the other directors of Srou to reach a decision is perfectly acceptable. However conducting a straw pole of your own team mates I find distasteful, it would have been just as easy to ask the question here.

ii) Beyond the above I applaud Adam for his efforts. Adam you asked for help in the moderating of races, I'm quite happy to help on that if you want me to.

iii) Whilst I have some sympathy for the dictatorship view that only works in a larger group of people, in a small group like this it is counterproductive and to put it in to context I know of four regulars who have said that won't take part in this series. In a group of 30 thats probably ok in a group of around 10 it suggests you're going to have an issue pretty quickly with attendance. As you've not reached out to the small group of mostly active racers I don't know how you've factored this in to the new direction.

iii) My main point is a group of you seem perfectly happy to repeatedly not take part in events or not put in the effort they need to be a success yet each time blame the format you've asked for and demand more changes. Furthermore you are quite happy that this happens without the views of the small number of people who do turnup time after time and diligently prepare being considered. This has already lost you one prominent member and risks doing the same to more.

iv) If all members put in the effort needed we would have full grids now, I'm deeply concerned about more major changes ending up with no improvement. You have no more guarantee that this will work than the last time we changed when people were all for it. People don't seem to want to consider this but it is a fact.

v) An attempt to be constructive today is dismissed with no thought whatsoever, is it only welcomed if you are a member of a certain group? I am beginning to wonder! My question did have merit to try and keep people involved in the title but its obviously outside the acceptable parameters.

vi) In terms of the cars I will attempt to race anything if I can fit it into my life. The Mustang does not interest me as I have no desire to drive something as crude as that in real life let alone a sim. I will try and race the Vette but find its a curious choice as its probably a much harder car to drive than anything we've tried so far as its on a knife edge with so much power and completely numb steering. I really don't see how this will improve the racing as you will have many more incidents with it than the current cars. Don't misunderstand these comments I will try and find a way to turn up and if I do I will be fully able to drive the thing, my worry is that people who turn up with little practice will not cope with it and quickly become fed up again.

vii) Have you considered that you have a real danger of having 5 people turn up to this who drive the Mustang and 5 drive the vette and less finish after 90 minutes. I'm not really sure how this will help to bring in new members.

If I've offended anyone with this, well I'm sorry, but only to a point, I'm actually quite offended myself that after putting in a lot of effort to attend races and putting in the necessary practice to make them competitive and safe that a number of you seem to want to dismiss me as being a whinger. Additionally whilst the move to Sunday night is going to be very difficult for me at no point did I ask for that not to happen, on the contrary I encouraged it if it was for the good of Srou.

Thanks a lot guys.

Gary

[Fred Basset]

Paul, if people can't finish a simple 40 minute sprint, I would advise that they stay away from these Endurance races, it's not for them.  You seem to suggest that their finishing problems are due to lack of practise.  Well, the schedules are posted well in advance and there is even a practise session hosted the night before a race.  There really is no excuse!  Anyway, I don't believe 'lack of practise' is the problem.  The majority of DNFs are caused by people 'over-driving' or by people taking big risks when overtaking.  Are you saying we should reward these drivers by tailoring our series to suit them?

Darren I think you two have similar views, people are not putting in the practice and then overdriving. iRacing is not the sim for a quick blast, its quite hard, if people want to race it they should prepare properly. The constant changing is not a silver bullet, some people seem to think it is but we will get the same problems if they don't prepare.

Regards
Gary

[Darren Seal]

Make it too hard core and you'll guarantee low attendance. The slower you are (read me) the more chance you'll be at the back of the pack. Practice or not. Someone can have a simple spin in front of you on a busy 1st lap and often as not, as soon as I'm out of my limited comfort zone, I'll crash in sympathy. If that happens at all regularly and I get no reward for my 2 weeks of practice (theory if not reality) why would I bother?

Why would that person in front of you spin, especially on lap 1 when they should be more careful?  Perhaps they were over-driving?    No one (especially me) is trying to make this series 'hardcore'.  However you need to strike the right balance, or we'll end up like a public server with everyone crashing out, and all the careful drivers going elsewhere.

Ask yourself who you want to stay.  Careful/gentleman drivers (that's you as well Pete) or reckless drivers?

[Darren Seal]

Sorry Gary I disagree.  Over-driving and lack of practise is NOT the same thing....

Practise can make you go faster.  But over-driving is trying to go faster than your skill level allows.

[Fred Basset]

Make it too hard core and you'll guarantee low attendance. The slower you are (read me) the more chance you'll be at the back of the pack. Practice or not. Someone can have a simple spin in front of you on a busy 1st lap and often as not, as soon as I'm out of my limited comfort zone, I'll crash in sympathy. If that happens at all regularly and I get no reward for my 2 weeks of practice (theory if not reality) why would I bother?

Why would that person in front of you spin, especially on lap 1 when they should be more careful?  Perhaps they were over-driving?    No one (especially me) is trying to make this series 'hardcore'.  However you need to strike the right balance, or we'll end up like a public server with everyone crashing out, and all the careful drivers going elsewhere.

Ask yourself who you want to stay.  Careful/gentleman drivers (that's you as well Pete) or reckless drivers?

+1 yes that is the essence of racing here isn't it. Thats why I damn well want to race here.

Gary

[Fred Basset]

Sorry Gary I disagree.  Over-driving and lack of practise is NOT the same thing....

Ok, lets try it again. Its much more likely a driver with little or no practice will overdrive. Can we agree on that.

Gary

[Darren Seal]

Sorry Gary I disagree.  Over-driving and lack of practise is NOT the same thing....

Ok, lets try it again. Its much more likely a driver with little or no practice will overdrive. Can we agree on that.

Gary

A driver joining a race/qualifying session (practise session is fine) with zero practise is foolish and selfish.  If they can't stay on the track by themselves off-line they should stay away for the benefit of others.

It doesn't matter how much practise you have had, you should know your current limits when joining a race, and you should not try to go beyond them....

Lack of practise is an excuse for poor pace, not bad driving...


Answering your question, yes I agree.  Someone who enters a race session with little or no practise is more likely to over-drive.