UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8

[bernie]

I was very nervous at this point and almost lost it in Lesmo 2

Blooming heck ! H so at least one of your parents are humanoid 


And this fascinating race was a product of all those who are "sick to death of "  or  "hate"  Monza,  and dont want it included in S21 or ever again 

[Clutch4]

Well said Bernie.

I also saw a few comments from people in slower cars implying it was a waste of timing appearing at Monza, but H's drive proves that if you have the racecraft and the slipstream you can make a difference.

What i also like about Monza, and this has happened in the past, but not so much on this occasion for me, is that 2 competing drivers, can work together to achieve an overall faster lap time (with slip stream) to bridge the gap to those in front. Spa is the only other Track where i've noticed this happen.

If Monza is dropped then it'll be a real loss, especially now that it is proven that any type of car can compete at the front end of the grid.

[EvilClive]

Looks like you had a great race Hristo       Grats to Tim on the championship win  

I think that all the BT7 and Cooper drivers knew that this was going to be a tough race and that slipstream was crucial against the BRM and BT11 brigade.
Waza team tactics dragged me to a reasonable grid slot and although I bogged down at the start I was at least tagged on to the back of the main pack and able to benefit from the slipstream to keep up.

I was in no rush to pass anyone this early in the race , so when Tim took advantage of my tow and slipped past at Parabolica I was not concerned as I was still being dragged around by the crowd. Juha closed up in the Honda and out dragged me to Curve Grande dropping me back to 10th place but still tail end charlie with the main pack, so no probs.

Then it all went wrong when Juha and Tim tried to take Curve Grande side by side and touched, resulting in a few spectacular cartwheels and 2 retirements.
I negotiated the show without contact, but it cost me some loss of speed and more importantly the gap to the next car was now at the limit of the slipstream effect!! Slowly I was losing ground and despite trying to max out through Lesmos and Parabolica I just could not close the gap and the main pack eased away.
Bernie had dispensed with Phil behind me and the higher straight line speed of his car hauled me in and made the pass. Once he was in front I could comfortably stay with him because of the tow on the straights. Passing him and getting away might be another problem, but for the moment I was happy to be dragged along and maybe Bernie would pull me up to the cars in front??
Then he got tired and vanished just as we entered Curve Grande, which was a bit scary!! was he going to reappear on my bonnet??? but he was gone for good.
That was about lap 10 of 35. From then on I did not see another car for the whole race and ran in 8th and  last place.

[Hristo Itchov]

Well said Bernie.

I also saw a few comments from people in slower cars implying it was a waste of timing appearing at Monza, but H's drive proves that if you have the racecraft and the slipstream you can make a difference.

What i also like about Monza, and this has happened in the past, but not so much on this occasion for me, is that 2 competing drivers, can work together to achieve an overall faster lap time (with slip stream) to bridge the gap to those in front. Spa is the only other Track where i've noticed this happen.

If Monza is dropped then it'll be a real loss, especially now that it is proven that any type of car can compete at the front end of the grid.

You're not quite right. Regardless of how fast I could go, it would've been IMPOSSIBLE to have any impact on the fast cars in front had they not worked against each other. So I was just lucky that's the way it unfolded and nothing to do with the track. As far as the track is concerned, I would've finished in a lowly 5th or 6th if those ahead used the tow properly to pull each other forward.

So yes, I still insist Monza (and similar tracks) should be dropped at least once off the schedule, because it completely kills any REALISTIC chance for the slow car drivers, yet there is not a single track which favours those drivers - the faster cars are always faster, no matter the track. I can't rely on others making mistakes all the time. Plus, come on, we've had Monza for ALL seasons, in all divisions so far...

Having just read Evil's report, there's a lot more realistic development of events for a slow car driver. I would've been in exactly the same position had those in front not fought like mad. In fact, even when they did, I nearly lost the tow at one point. And it also assumes you NEVER make mistakes. Even a single error drops you back by a mile. So please don't tell me this Monza race proves anything, because it doesn't...

[FullMetalGasket]

Apart from last season you mean? 

[Hristo Itchov]

Apart from last season you mean? 

Well, we can continue that tradition. 

[miner2049er]

we've had Monza for ALL seasons, in all divisions so far...

Apart from last season you mean?

.... and this season ....

So yes, I still insist Monza (and similar tracks) should be dropped at least once off the schedule, because it completely kills any REALISTIC chance for the slow car drivers

Well, I won't speak for Amateurs as I didn't mod it or compete in it, but the thinking behind the allocations and the circuits in Novices is that they are based over the season and not each race. Over the season every chassis gets an equal chance of a win and the allocations don't give slow cars a chance at every track which is where those cars have to finish as high as they can and in the points, knowing those points will still count at the end.

So please don't tell me this Monza race proves anything, because it doesn't...

It does, it proves the Novices will be using it again next season. 

[Hristo Itchov]

What you mean "and this season", Mike? We just had a Monza race!  And yes, I'm talking about the divisions I've raced only. When I say all seasons and all divisions, of course we skipped Monza once or twice in a single division or two, but that's over the span of 20 seasons!

[EvilClive]

The comments re Monza are all true, from all sides.
 From the point of view of the BT7's and Coopers and from those in the BRM's and Brabhams etc. I guess it depends from which side of the fence you are viewing these comments.

Yes, a "slower" car in the hands of a fast driver can keep pace with one of the faster chassis, but to make a pass and take the position absoutely requires the services of another car ahead to offer some slipstream assistance. Otherwise the BRM or whatever will just breeze past on the next straight and any mistake by the slower car that allows the gap to grow will leave him floundering.

If, as Hristo was, it is a 2 car dice, there is only one chance to take the place, and that is exiting Parabolica on the last lap and then just hope and pray you can hold on until you cross the S/F line. Which even Hristo could not manage to do ( although it was close!!)

The difference between Hristo's race and mine was the availability of slipstream, because at Monza the BT7's and Coopers are doomed without it.
 Hristo managed, with the help of cars in front holding each other up in the early laps, to stay within the slipstream range and contest the places.
My race was the opposite once I was cast adrift (because of Tim and Juha's incident) from a position where I could pick up the tow from anyone in front. I slowly lost ground and spent 2/3rds of the race totally alone and driving for 30 minutes like a metronome. My only hope of picking up places was for someone in front to make a mistake or break down, whilst I pushed as hard as I could for the whole race with no mistakes.
After Bernie's disco I did not even see another car for the next 30minutes . No-one lapped me and I could not even glimpse the car in front. If it was not for Prib I might even have thought that no-one else was there!!

The BT7 and the Cooper can be made to handle reasonably well and it is only by fully exploiting the handling at 100% lap after lap to make up time through corners that you can make these cars competitive at most tracks.
Monza has only 2 corners that require any braking and real commitment.  Lesmo 2 is treated as a virtual second apex in the 65's as all the speed is lost through Lesmo 1 and you just have to get on the gas at the right moment to exit cleanly towards Parabolica. So, 2 spots where good driving in a BT7 might gain you something, against the other 80% of the lap where faster cars just nail the gas and can drive away without any effort??

Those in faster cars probably do indeed get some close racing because the "ability factor" is once again nullified to a 2 corner advantage with most of the lap relying on your right foot? But close racing along a straight is surely not that satisfying is it??
On that basis Avus would be an even better circuit for close racing than Monza???

Personally I think that the "fed up with Monza" comments are because we have just run so many races over the last couple of weeks at the same circuit.
Monza once every 6- 8weeks would not be a problem I feel but every race for 4 weeks is just a tad boring for me.

[maddog]

Monza is a track where, too much of the skill is left to the engineers.

[Clutch4]

I think at Monza, Slipstream is king (obviously) and the car difference isn't as big as the BT7 and Cooper drivers make out, *Unless* you are out of the Slipstream.

Out of the slipstream a BT11 or BRM Driver is as helpless as at BT7 or BRM Driver when trying to catch the slipstreaming cars in front, whether they are fighting with each other or not.

Obviously out of Slipstream, BT11's, BRM's..etc have an advantage, but 'In traffic & Slipstreaming' at Monza, the difference isn't as HUGE as its made out to be between the chassis.

I guess its all about creating a mix of Tracks over the Championship Season which suit different people / cars (just like 'real' racing), its not all about the BT7 brigade having 'a shot' at victory, sometimes you've gotta bite the bullet and make the best of a bad job, which H clearly did with a lowly...er... podium spot in a BT7 on a power circuit.

Anyway, lets drop Monza for Reims or Hockenheim next season...?? 

[miner2049er]

And yes, I'm talking about the divisions I've raced only. When I say all seasons and all divisions, of course we skipped Monza once or twice in a single division or two, but that's over the span of 20 seasons!

I know, I know, irony doesn't work well in text, but the Novices haven't used it this season. 

[Hristo Itchov]

I think at Monza, Slipstream is king (obviously) and the car difference isn't as big as the BT7 and Cooper drivers make out, *Unless* you are out of the Slipstream.

I can promise you that if you put me in a BRM and you take the BT7/Cooper, you're NEVER going to keep up, even with slipstream... it's one thing comparing drivers of different ability in different cars, and quite another comparing only the cars.

And how can you say BRM/BT11 drivers were hopeless without a slipstream? It only took a slight delay of acceleration out of Lesmo 2 to almost completely lose the tow to Tom ahead, on the whole run towards Parabolica.

As for your handicap suggestions, I have always thought that the idea is to give every driver a chance of victory, at EVERY race. I don't agree we should have a race where someone has to bite the bullet, such as the case with BT7/Cooper at power tracks.   Why don't you bite the bullet instead?

And you're talking about my 2nd place as if it's an objective result, ignoring why it actually occured - people driving overly-aggressive, holding each other up, people going off or retiring, etc...

[Clutch4]

Fair do's, stick me in a BT7 / Cooper next season. Lets hope Monza comes up. 

[FullMetalGasket]

Can do if you really want Clutch! 
Although I think you may change your mind by then