UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Historic Trophy (66) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 15

[G Jonsson]

@Goran - yes, shit happens. It does in all forms of competitive activity. If you take out the risk element, it loses the attraction. We can't act like kids and always want to draw the long straw and complain when we don't. Sure, it's normal to be angry but you get over it and move on. And if a driver is at fault for causing the accident, you just apply the rules and penalize.

? 

Göran

[Ronniepeterson]

One thing I can say is that, for Season 21, it is looking 99% certain we will be introducing full scrutiny of lap one across all divisions. I am hopeful this will help in reducing lap one pile-ups as, maybe wishfull thinking, you might be a bit more cautious if you know the 'eye in the sky' is watching you.

Good call, I for one hope this becomes 100% certain.

[Dave Randall]

OMG (if I had one), what have I started?!  Although, I get the impression there have been a few such incidents this season.  Just want to say that as the culprit on this occasion, I would and will take any penalty as completely deserved, but even if there wasn't one, I think the embarrassment of being the idiot to cause such havoc is incentive enough to try damnest not to make such a risky move again.

I agree that any points 'earned' from just starting should be erased and to start at the back of the next race would also be a justified penalty, I'm thinking of doing that anyway as I'm not sure I want to even take the chance of being involved in another lap 1 incident for a while, just so you know in case I give up that pole at Efexx!    

[vosblod]

OMG (if I had one), what have I started?!  Although, I get the impression there have been a few such incidents this season.  Just want to say that as the culprit on this occasion, I would and will take any penalty as completely deserved, but even if there wasn't one, I think the embarrassment of being the idiot to cause such havoc is incentive enough to try damnest not to make such a risky move again.

Don't worry it always goes this way, it just happened to be you this time

[Hristo Itchov]

You didn't really started it, Dave, we're continuing a discussion from earlier this season, so it's not your fault, nor I think you should feel as culprit. I don't believe you deserve a penalty to start at the back, as I already said it only seems appropriate as a 2nd or 3rd tier penalty for someone who has already accumulated yellow points and/or caused similar accidents in previous races and repeated that.

[Nigel Smith]

Dave, as I can testify, starting at the back does not mean you will not be involved in any incident. You do get a great view of all the balletic pirouettes of the cars as you start picking you're avoiding line though.
Then you hit a previously invisible car, as there is usually a lot of warping and such with a busy incident.
Apologies to Tom as I centre punched him whilst turning my car- glad to see you finished so strongly.

[G Jonsson]

I`m just curious. How come there has been no incident reports submitted for this one?

Göran

[Nigel Smith]

    End of season ennui perhaps Goran?

[Hristo Itchov]

What do you think is the point of reporting? There was only one big accident as far as I know and Dave has already seen his mistake, so what would exactly reporting achieve? It's the reason why I rarely file a report and instead try to discuss things in here, at least when I expect that the people involved are capable of seeing what actually happened, instead of just ignoring it and doing the same thing next race.

[Al Heller]

I`m just curious. How come there has been no incident reports submitted for this one?

Göran

Hi Goran,

I thought all lap 1 incidents were reviewed as a matter of course now - or have I got that wrong?

[Hristo Itchov]

I`m just curious. How come there has been no incident reports submitted for this one?

Göran

Hi Goran,

I thought all lap 1 incidents were reviewed as a matter of course now - or have I got that wrong?

Only in Novices.

[vosblod]

I`m just curious. How come there has been no incident reports submitted for this one?
Göran

Hi Goran,
I thought all lap 1 incidents were reviewed as a matter of course now - or have I got that wrong?

Only in Novices.

The race post does say this...

Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderator will review any incident on lap one.

[Al Heller]

I`m just curious. How come there has been no incident reports submitted for this one?
Göran

Hi Goran,
I thought all lap 1 incidents were reviewed as a matter of course now - or have I got that wrong?

Only in Novices.

The race post does say this...

Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderator will review any incident on lap one.

No further questions, m'lud. 

[G Jonsson]

Hummmmm!!!

What have I started??

When I after the Mexico race put the "however the moderator will review any incident on lap one." in the race thread It was to make sure that incidents not being reported could be reviewed. It was not my intention that because "the moderator will review any incident on lap one" no one could or would or should report incidents on lap 1.

But the information business is really tricky and for sure it is very easy to mean something, put it into words and then others read it and get something else. I will try to make this clearer for the next season, I emphasize try.

Anyway it is another thing I would like to address here, Hristo wrote: "What do you think is the point of reporting? There was only one big accident as far as I know and Dave has already seen his mistake, so what would exactly reporting achieve?"

What happend after the race was that in the race thread on this forum Hristo wrote: "That was a really bad move, Dave, it ruined the race for many of us." And Dave responded: "I should have just kept it straight, but instead ended up spoiling several of your races on the very first lap, shameful!"

Then it went on for some time and after that Hristo wrote the above: "What do you think....."

That mean that drivers involved in the incident themself on the forum is "moderating" the incident and then think it is done.  Should the penalty system  come into action only if the drivers involved does not come to an understanding?

OK, it`s not that I like the incident moderating so much that I want many incidents to moderat, it`s just that I do not think it is such a good idea that the drivers involved does the moderating, that it is done on the forum and that the drivers in this way avoids penalties.

I wonder if the situation would be any different if the penalty system instead of using places lost would use yellow cards, so an incident that today would give 2 places lost would give 2 yellow cards and that when you get like 3 yellow card a penalty come into play. So if you in a race get 2 yellow cards, no penalty would be given, until you get the 3rd yellow card.

Göran

 

 

[Hristo Itchov]

Well, I certainly remember hearing and/or reading a couple of times something along the lines of "Novices is the only division which reviews lap 1 for incidents regardless if drivers send a report or not".

Goran, it's not that I don't see a point of moderating incidents which we've already discussed, but at the moment I don't see what would be achieved if Dave is penalized with a couple of lost places (which is what I'm sure he'll get?).

It's related to my opinion that the penalties are not efficiently affecting the way people approach racing, in a gradual manner. In this case, we can clearly see Dave had seen his wrong and since he rarely does such things anyway, I'm sure he'll learn a great deal from it. Of course, this way of judgement can lead to serious problems, with drivers saying sorry after a race just to escape being moderated, but I believe 100% this is not the case here.

Again, this leads to my opinion that we're not exactly correct in the way penalties are being handed out, nor the effect of some penalties. For instance, in this case we have a driver who's known to be safe, yet if he gets a lost places penalty, how is that 1) going to change anything 2) differentiate him from drivers who cause accidents a lot more regularly and still get the same penalties?