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  • S21PSC Mexico City: July 29, 2011
July 29, 2011, 09:52:21 PM +0100 - Mexico City (1962-1979) - UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Porsche
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Hristo Itchov
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 2 +0.164
102.336mph
1 (+4) 49:50.116
100.976mph
27 1:48.821
102.761mph
Dunlop  
clouds
 SuperCup GPFun
Porsche 910 GT 1967 1 1:49.109
102.490mph
2 (+2) +0.753
100.950mph
27 1:49.256
102.352mph
Dunlop  
jhalli
 SuperCup Porsche International
Porsche 910 GT 1967 4 +1.572
101.034mph
3 (+2) +1:39.807
97.714mph
27 1:50.390
101.300mph
Dunlop  
Ronniepeterson
 SuperCup Porsche International
Porsche 910 GT 1967 7 +3.158
99.607mph
4 +1:55.315
97.226mph
27 1:53.329
98.673mph
Dunlop  
Arf Arf Arf
 SuperCup LOL'Team 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +2.146
100.513mph
5 +1L
97.109mph
26 1:52.479
99.419mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 SuperCup LOL'Team 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 10 +5.081
97.929mph
6 +14.270
96.648mph
26 1:53.630
98.412mph
Dunlop  
Cookie
 SuperCup Porsche International
Porsche 910 GT 1967 9 +3.718
99.112mph
7 +25.099
96.302mph
26 1:53.457
98.562mph
Dunlop  
Phil Thornton
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 14 +6.797
96.480mph
8 +1:36.545
94.075mph
26 1:55.935
96.455mph
Dunlop  
JonnyO
 SuperCup Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 11 +5.487
97.582mph
9 +1:38.514
94.016mph
26 1:55.945
96.447mph
Dunlop  
BadBlood
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 15 +12.385
92.042mph
10 +3L
88.576mph
24 2:01.199
92.266mph
Disco
Dunlop  
maddog
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 18 11 +8L
93.637mph
19 1:54.463
97.696mph
Disco
Dunlop  
blito
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 12 +5.996
97.151mph
12 +12L
87.529mph
15 2:03.360
90.650mph
Disco
Dunlop  
MagicArsouille
 SuperCup LOL'Team 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 3 +0.318
102.192mph
13 (+1) +20L
99.911mph
7 1:50.361
101.327mph
Disco
Dunlop  
RBald
 SuperCup GPFun
Porsche 910 GT 1967 19 14 +2:00.225
86.619mph
7 2:01.783
91.824mph
Disco
Dunlop  
andrwe
 SuperCup GPFun
Porsche 910 GT 1967 6 +2.323
100.353mph
15 +24L
93.108mph
3 1:53.434
98.582mph
Disco
Dunlop  
francesco
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 13 +6.175
97.000mph
16 (+2) +25L
85.484mph
2 2:02.029
91.639mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Raoni Frizzo
 SuperCup Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 8 +3.400
99.393mph
17 +26L
92.028mph
1 1:58.400
94.447mph
Disco
Dunlop  
DuFossa
 SuperCup Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 16 +12.770
91.751mph
18 +15.269
81.755mph
1 2:06.897
88.123mph
Disco
Dunlop  
HendyNichols
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 20 19 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 17 20 ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Mexico is the scene of many great races in the past for UKGPL and this was no different.

Surely a track this wide meant there was room for everyone so it should be a fairly easy moderation.........

Tempers seemed a little frayed at times on track which in the heat of battle is normal as long as we keep within the limits of our Sporting Regulations, but tempers getting frayed in the forums and chat room after the race crosses the line of conduct and gives a poor impression of the tight but welcoming community that we have built up at UKGPL over a period of years.

On to the race then which all moderators have reviewed following the furore that surrounded it.


Server replay time: 0h03m20s

Hristo is swatting a fly that has got into his cockpit.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h03m35s

Juha brakes too late at the chicane and runs into the back of Hristo. Whether or not Hristo was slower than normal because of traffic in front of him it is Juha's responsibility to avoid a collision.


Server replay time: 0h03m42s

Hristo ends up facing the wrong way at the hairpin after Juha's touch and he is desperate to get going again.

He can clearly see back along the track and see that cars are approaching but he attempts to spin and rejoin in front of them. It is not up to the approaching drivers to allow him room to rejoin, he must find a clear piece of track to drive back into, even if that means waiting for a gap in the traffic and losing positions.


Server replay time: 0h04m40s

Andreas overtakes Fran who goes too tight knowing that Andreas is there which contributes to his demise as he is pushed left with a warp contact.

Fran ends up riding the top of the rail around Peralta and his three wheel Porsche is out of control as his car comes back onto the track in front of Blito who has nowhere to go.

Fran rolls and then tries to recover onto the racing line where Paul is now fast approaching and hits him with no way to avoid him.


Server replay time: 0h07m31s

Andreas hits Arf who blocks half of the track.
Andreas saw Arf early enough and could perhaps have done more to avoid him.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h14m55s

Tristan seems aggressive into the right hander but is equally so on other laps when he takes the same line but he does take a risk as he could see Hristo in his mirrors on the approach going for the inside.

I think Tristan is surprised by Paul's lower exit speed here and expects him to be quicker, even though it is the second time he has lapped him. As a result he gets it completely wrong, hits the barrier and bounces back into Paul.

"In a corner, after a legitimate overtaking attempt the cars end up side by side. One driver moves over instead of staying on their own side of the track. Contact is made. Penalty for driver that moves over."

Hristo then hits Tristan.


Server replay time: 0h28m45s

Sergio and Hristo fast approach T1 and aim to lap BB at the same time.
Sergio loses control under braking and Hristo takes advantage by nipping through on the inside.
Sergio fights to recover and keep to the inside but he suffers what appears to be a slight warp from Hristo as the server shows no contact.

Warp Incident

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h42m15s

Hristo moves to the inside under braking for the hairpin but has no overlap at turn in and should back out of the move.
Hristo feels that Sergio blocks by turning in early, but Sergio takes the same tight line on other occasions (lap 25 for example).


Server replay time: 0h42m20s

Sergio retakes the lead at the next chicane and Hristo touches the back of him as his exit speed is higher than Sergio's.
As only Hristo is affected.

  • Racing incident


Server replay time: 0h47m47s

Sergio makes a late braking move up the inside of the hairpin.
He has no overlap at turn in and does get the car stopped and around but only by hitting Hristo in the process.


Server replay time: 0h48m16s

Sergio loses control through the esses and is unpredictable as he exits the final left hander.
Hristo goes to make a pass as Sergio attempts to recover control and just clips Sergio.

  • Racing incident

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
Grand Prix Legends
GT 1967
1:49.109
102.490mph
clouds
Qualifying
Porsche 910July 29, 2011, 09:52:21 PM +0100
S21PSC
Grand Prix Legends
GT 1967
1:48.821
102.761mph
Hristo Itchov
Race
Porsche 910July 29, 2011, 09:52:21 PM +0100
S21PSC
July 29, 2011, 10:46:41 PM +0100 - Mexico City (1962-1979) - UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Porsche
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
EvilClive
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 1 1:50.031
101.641mph
1 50:20.148
99.981mph
27 1:50.251
101.438mph
Dunlop  
G Jonsson
 SuperCup Black Night
Porsche 910 GT 1967 2 +0.985
100.739mph
2 +39.717
98.684mph
27 1:52.080
99.783mph
Dunlop  
Pedro vd Berg
 SuperCup Black Night
Porsche 910 GT 1967 3 +1.479
100.293mph
3 +48.146
98.413mph
27 1:51.946
99.902mph
Dunlop  
fpolicardi
 SuperCup Team7
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +2.420
99.454mph
4 +1:01.473
97.987mph
27 1:52.503
99.408mph
Dunlop  
NickyIckx
 SuperCup Pasti Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 6 +3.292
98.688mph
5 +1:30.783
97.064mph
27 1:53.122
98.864mph
Dunlop  
norbert
 SuperCup Pasti Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 8 +5.328
96.947mph
6 +10L
93.960mph
17 1:55.122
97.146mph
Disco
Dunlop  
vosblod
 SuperCup Clark-Hill
Porsche 910 GT 1967 10 +7.039
95.530mph
7 +23L
82.025mph
4 2:01.327
92.178mph
Disco
Dunlop  
il_lupo_mannaro
 SuperCup Black Night
Porsche 910 GT 1967 7 +3.969
98.102mph
8 +25L
92.779mph
2 1:56.232
96.218mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Caracciola
 SuperCup LOL'Team 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 4 +2.267
99.589mph
9 +26L
92.123mph
1 1:59.345
93.709mph
Disco
Dunlop  
s2173
 SuperCup Team7
Porsche 910 GT 1967 9 +6.209
96.212mph
10 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  
8 GPG
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 11 11 ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

No reported incidents and a clean lap 1.

Just like the other server perhaps?

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Porsche - Mexico City (1962-1979) - Jul 29  (Read 16282 times)
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2011, 04:24:55 AM +0100 »

Quote from: Hristo Itchov link=topic=9729.msg177954#msg177954
To penalize me with 5 places lost overall, for a maneuver that was not done in a blind decision but by taking all factors into account (as written in my report) and for an incident that I never caused myself, and considering my record of clean racing, that looks like nothing else but purposeful scapegoat making with no real basis whatsoever.

from what i see of the report it's not one maneuver , thou you say overall . it does disingenuously make it sound like those five places "lost" are from just the one but the report says two different mistakes cost you those places .

i do have sympathy that it was your lack of skill or rather proper car control (you did say that you lost the revs so couldn't do a proper spin recovery) ,  however that should in no way forgive for your actions !

you tried and failed to rejoin a race infront of others that had a right to the road (infront of your rights) and to blame them for not slowing down does not make you blameless , so you have been given the penalty "Appallingly Bad Rejoin" which is right ... if it had been me i'd have thrown the book at you because with your skill i'd have expected better .

i hope that you take this advise in the right way , but i know you won't and expect a reply (that i won't reply to .. so you might as well make it as long and as complex as you like) .

happy racing .

john

No, JR, as I said as soon as the race was over, I know what I did was not ideal, but if you really observe the replay you will see Raoni hitting Arf as a separate incident that was going to happen regardless whether I accelerated and turned around to rejoin, or not. What I take from it is knowledge that with the Porsche, at least with the gear ratio I had, even if you floor the throttle, it's not enough to overcome the amount of grip and tire scrubbing while you have the front wheels close to full opposite lock, and thus the revs would drop.  Wink To imply that I should know such a thing in advance based on my amount of experience is unrealistic though. My experience is mostly with the F1 cars and in those it would've worked just fine. Do you practice such rejoins yourself? I don't.  Cheesy Anyway, I do take responsibility for the rejoin, but I was not the only one at fault in the whole situation and an incident would have happened anyway.

And as for the other incident, I've already said clearly what I think about it, so my point about the 5 places lost overall was based on my views on whose fault it was for causing that incident.
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Raoni Frizzo
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« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2011, 04:30:42 AM +0100 »

To be honest, I really don't care if someone hits me at a race. Of course, we always try to be the cleanest driver as possible and don't like to hit or to be hit by someone. But, there's nothing better to hear a "sorry" from a driver who hits you, or to say "sorry" if you crash into someone. It's one of the most gallant words that exists.

Hristo, I admire you for being so fast, even when driving on the limit. But, what's the problem to say "sorry"? What's the problem to assume a mistake? Even the greatest drivers of the world made mistakes one day and were gentlemans enough to say sorry about their mistakes. Wink

You drove on the wrong way into me and Arf. This is a fact. Period. I have to be honest to say that I hadn't seen again the replay before today (once Arf reported the accident before me). Maybe I would really rear ended Arf even if you didn't had done this terrible rejoin. So, my apologies to Arf...and I'll be accepting any kind of penalty if I receive it.

And yes, this is definetely a computer game. I can't comprehend how a penalty of a virtual race can provide such a boring and unnecessary discussion. I - and I think that most of us - face it as a place to keep ourselves free of the problems of the real life - sometimes like work, family, disease.. - and to share some laughs, a good conversation and some races.

Of course, we all want to do our best, to beat our opponents, but always in a good mood. But, if we turn GPL into a new reason to be stressed and to make fight...well, we're having a problem. Serious....so serious. Huh I don't think that a penalty of a virtual race can be so stressing. It doesn't affects our real life, our healthy, our friends, or even the value of the Dollar or Euro...

I'm not better than anyone to say how or who someone have to behave, but just a good advice: a virtual community (for any kind of theme) is not the best place to create enemies. Or at least don't try to create enemies. Life is too short for misery Smiley

And SORRY everybody for my boring text. I really don't like when a polemic incident takes the place of the race, which is what really matter...

(And lets go to Rouen!) Grin
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blito
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« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2011, 06:53:52 AM +0100 »

Well said Raoni.... those are very good words.
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Jason Blito
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« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2011, 07:35:02 AM +0100 »

Thanks Raoni !!!

...and lets enjoy Rouen  Grin
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Axel "Cookie"

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« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2011, 08:26:40 AM +0100 »

You said it perfectly Raoni,

Lets draw a line under this and move on and enjoy our racing.
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« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2011, 09:32:31 AM +0100 »

My  Compliments Raoni, I could not have said it better than you.
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

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« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2011, 10:22:34 AM +0100 »

I would not want to say this sort of intimidation should serve to Hristo in occasion another situation like this should occur, it should means, the moderators should avoid another situation like this if they think that every incident with Hristo could hide big arguing like in this case.

It only was sufficent some words like: SORRY GUYS, MY MISTAKE!
but  maybe these words are not in certain dictionaries.

I think only a thing, years of skill and experience wasted in a stupid discussion. Well done Hristo! Go ahead Hristo, we will waste our summer holidays to read your news. Wink Tongue
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 10:29:26 AM +0100 by clouds » Logged

Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2011, 11:46:10 AM +0100 »

To be honest, I really don't care if someone hits me at a race. Of course, we always try to be the cleanest driver as possible and don't like to hit or to be hit by someone. But, there's nothing better to hear a "sorry" from a driver who hits you, or to say "sorry" if you crash into someone. It's one of the most gallant words that exists.

Hristo, I admire you for being so fast, even when driving on the limit. But, what's the problem to say "sorry"? What's the problem to assume a mistake? Even the greatest drivers of the world made mistakes one day and were gentlemans enough to say sorry about their mistakes. Wink

You drove on the wrong way into me and Arf. This is a fact. Period. I have to be honest to say that I hadn't seen again the replay before today (once Arf reported the accident before me). Maybe I would really rear ended Arf even if you didn't had done this terrible rejoin. So, my apologies to Arf...and I'll be accepting any kind of penalty if I receive it.

And yes, this is definetely a computer game. I can't comprehend how a penalty of a virtual race can provide such a boring and unnecessary discussion. I - and I think that most of us - face it as a place to keep ourselves free of the problems of the real life - sometimes like work, family, disease.. - and to share some laughs, a good conversation and some races.

Of course, we all want to do our best, to beat our opponents, but always in a good mood. But, if we turn GPL into a new reason to be stressed and to make fight...well, we're having a problem. Serious....so serious. Huh I don't think that a penalty of a virtual race can be so stressing. It doesn't affects our real life, our healthy, our friends, or even the value of the Dollar or Euro...

I'm not better than anyone to say how or who someone have to behave, but just a good advice: a virtual community (for any kind of theme) is not the best place to create enemies. Or at least don't try to create enemies. Life is too short for misery Smiley

And SORRY everybody for my boring text. I really don't like when a polemic incident takes the place of the race, which is what really matter...

(And lets go to Rouen!) Grin

The reason I did not say sorry to you, Raoni, is because you were all offensive in the chat after the race without even seeing the replay, when in reality (and as you observed in the replay), you would have hit Arf regardless of what I did. The reason I'm so convinced is because I compared yours, Arf's and the two leading car's speed at the moment of turning into the hairpin. You may assume Arf slowed down more than he would have otherwise done if I was not turning in front of him, but in fact his speed was about equal to that of the leader of the race (who had nobody rejoining in front of him), it was higher than 2nd placed car, and yours was higher than all 3, some 10-15 km/h faster just before impact. Also Arf's direction of travel was set before I began to turn around, so he did not turn earlier in a diagonal line because of seeing my car move. At the moment where you and Arf started braking, I hadn't moved yet. In fact I did not move until you passed about 1/4th of your braking distance, by which time you were already braking at maximum efficiency and even if I did not turn in front of Arf, his speed would not have differed much, if at all.

I've heard from a couple of people you tend to brake too late in general and you do that right from lap 1 when it's a very risky thing to do, especially with keyboard where you can't modulate the braking effort, so next time instead of attacking me for doing something wrong, take a look what you did wrong first. I'm not going to say sorry to someone who has not even realized his own mistake yet demands an apology for me. Some people use the word "sorry" very lightly and it loses all its meaning, it just sounds false. I may be saying "sorry" on very rare occasions, but it would be a honest and real apology.

In racing incidents like these the responsibility is always shared, it's not one-sided, so to demand an apology from just one of the drivers is not something I can accept. Personally I don't need someone to say sorry to me, I would rather have them learn from what they did wrong and try not to repeat it the next race. That is my only wish here really, learning from mistakes but without going overboard with it by asking people to dumb down their race craft and race like grandmas on public roads.

I would not want to say this sort of intimidation should serve to Hristo in occasion another situation like this should occur, it should means, the moderators should avoid another situation like this if they think that every incident with Hristo could hide big arguing like in this case.

It only was sufficent some words like: SORRY GUYS, MY MISTAKE!
but  maybe these words are not in certain dictionaries.

I think only a thing, years of skill and experience wasted in a stupid discussion. Well done Hristo! Go ahead Hristo, we will waste our summer holidays to read your news. Wink Tongue

Well, that's the kind of attitude which would keep leading to more incidents involving you in the future, because you choose not to learn anything from it and you choose to keep thinking you did nothing wrong (when in fact your moves were the most aggressive and appalling). Calling this a stupid discussion is all I need to know about your personality and approach to racing, the rest does not interest me.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:50:43 AM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

clouds
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« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2011, 12:20:56 PM +0100 »

This is a stupid discussion because you turned it in such a way without any reason, and what is worst is that you continue discuting. You mounted all this movie and then you'r in stall. What a move !!!
It seems all we have only duties Vs you, while you have only rights Vs the others, this is what you should have to mind. Anyway don't worry I'll take an eye pointed on you next time I'll meet you on  a track expecially if you'll be behind (it could be a rare case but it could be always possible).
And yes I did something wrong, I absolutely didn't think to smash you out and I'm sorry for this I've lost the opportunity to make a favour to alot of us during the race LOL!!!
I've seen another bad behaviour coming from you at Brands, you were 2 secs faster than me and unexplicably I've found you in front of me and, now I figure out you did it because of a team play. And this continued also after I spun off. Team play is to help team mates not to block opponents making team mates coming closer in a race also having the possibility to run away faster. This is called obstructionism. Try to do this thing again and you will see what will happens then.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 01:24:32 PM +0100 by clouds » Logged

Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2011, 02:10:00 PM +0100 »

This is a stupid discussion because you turned it in such a way without any reason, and what is worst is that you continue discuting. You mounted all this movie and then you'r in stall. What a move !!!
It seems all we have only duties Vs you, while you have only rights Vs the others, this is what you should have to mind. Anyway don't worry I'll take an eye pointed on you next time I'll meet you on  a track expecially if you'll be behind (it could be a rare case but it could be always possible).
And yes I did something wrong, I absolutely didn't think to smash you out and I'm sorry for this I've lost the opportunity to make a favour to alot of us during the race LOL!!!
I've seen another bad behaviour coming from you at Brands, you were 2 secs faster than me and unexplicably I've found you in front of me and, now I figure out you did it because of a team play. And this continued also after I spun off. Team play is to help team mates not to block opponents making team mates coming closer in a race also having the possibility to run away faster. This is called obstructionism. Try to do this thing again and you will see what will happens then.


Without any reason? If you really think that then you're simply blind or did not read anything I've said, nor watched the video. I had all reason to be unhappy and maybe it's because you're new to UKGPL, but I've seen hundreds of situations and the subsequent moderation verdicts on them, and this one is simply incomparable.

Also, right with this last post of yours, you just proved how such moderation leads to drivers like yourself not learning anything from it and even threatening to play it as dirty in the future races. A favour for a lot of us driving, you say? Your retirement would've been a big favour to all in that race, not mine! The number of situations you created and were involved in, and your baseless blames towards backmarkers after the race, only supports my claim.

As for team play, lol, I can't believe you're going to cry about that now. I didn't weave, I didn't block (something you're very inclined to do every time a car is close to you), and you simply lost control on your own and now blame me for that? Pathetic... really pathetic. You speak of long gone past races, which at the time you said nothing about and complained nothing about, but now you start making things up because you can't come up with anything real to defend your statements.

Try that again and see what happens next? Good, I'm looking forward to being rearended by you, LOL. People like you should not be allowed to race in a league...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2011, 02:13:46 PM +0100 »

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but if you think it is you then consider why.

Some of the last postings have been quite unhelpful Gentlemen. We want respect in the forums and good clean racing. The rest is unnecessary and unhelpful to UKGPL as a whole.

Personal attacks and threats of retribution have absolutely no place on the forums.
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BadBlood

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clouds
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« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2011, 05:50:38 PM +0100 »

Yes you'r right I said nothing about Brands at that time because I thought it was not the case being myself the author of my spun off and over all of my engine problems but I've seen your race from the cameracar of the pilots behind you and now I can understand your moves. I come from roller speed skating I practiced at good national level for almost 17 years when I was young and I know very well what does it means TEAM PLAY m8 !!!
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

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« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2011, 06:35:02 PM +0100 »

Stop it, Clouds, you get annoyng already...
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« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2011, 06:38:15 PM +0100 »

OK!
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
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