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  • S21GrW Sandown: August 14, 2011
August 14, 2011, 10:10:47 PM +0100 - Sandown (1962-83) - UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Privateers (67)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Ronniepeterson
 Clark-Hill Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 4 +0.496
101.950mph
1 52:18.077
98.428mph
44 1:09.314
101.276mph
Goodyear  
Rainier
 
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 1 1:08.360
102.690mph
2 +2.653
98.345mph
44 1:08.348
102.708mph
Goodyear  
maddog
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 3 +0.319
102.213mph
3 +12.792
98.028mph
44 1:08.747
102.112mph
Goodyear  
b_1_rd
 Clark-Hill Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 9 +3.702
97.414mph
4 +1L
95.088mph
43 1:09.762
100.626mph
Goodyear  
Michael Turner
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 7 +2.252
99.415mph
5 +2L
93.353mph
42 1:11.554
98.106mph
Firestone  
BadBlood
 HikiWazaRacing
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 11 +8.990
90.755mph
6 +5L
87.004mph
39 1:14.235
94.563mph
Disco
Firestone  
hannah
 
Honda RA300 F1 1967 10 +4.605
96.209mph
7 +6L
83.255mph
38 1:14.338
94.432mph
Disco
Firestone  
s2173
 
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 6 +1.369
100.674mph
8 (+5) +9L
90.440mph
35 1:10.816
99.128mph
Disco
Firestone  
miner2049er
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 5 +0.774
101.540mph
9 +10L
95.711mph
34 1:09.401
101.150mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Ross Neilson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 2 +0.240
102.331mph
10 +24L
95.030mph
20 1:09.130
101.546mph
Disco
Firestone  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Cooper T81b (Maserati) F1 1967 8 +2.333
99.301mph
11 +43L
82.017mph
1 1:23.882
83.688mph
Disco
Firestone  
vosblod
 Clark-Hill Racing
BRM P115 F1 1967 13 12 +31.515
59.945mph
1 1:51.407
63.011mph
Disco
Goodyear  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
BRM P115 F1 1967 12 13 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  

Moderator's Report

A nice clean lap one and all drivers who reset took a Stop and Go.


Server replay time: 0h02m28s

Mike T clips a haybale, spins and ends up facing backwards on the grass. He then rejoins by doing a 360 across the track. Paul and Hannah are approaching and, Paul at least, can be clearly seen. Paul has to swerve to avoid him but does not go off. It does not look like Mike was attempting to rejoin straight onto the racing line so our rules have this;

"Inconsiderate Bad Rejoin: Penalty 1 Places
The rejoining driver was in full control but nevertheless drove straight back onto the track without leaving enough room for other cars. Contact was NOT made but other drivers had to take avoiding action."

However I am going to mitigate this down to a Warning purely because Mike does appear to make efforts to stay to the side and no major harm was done. He may well have decided there was enough room to rejoin without affecting the oncoming traffic but really should have waited for the cars to clear first.


Server replay time: 0h02m36s

After the above incident Paul and Hannah have passed Mike T when Paul clips a curb and spins. It all happens very quickly and Hannah does the correct thing and slows right down until the situation becomes clear. In the meantime Mike goes into the back of Hannah. Mike does not appear to slow very much and is travelling at much greater speed then Hannah at point of impact. He had time to see Paul going awry and should have slowed much more. According to the server replay the flagman is not waving yellows. This type of thing falls under the incident approach rules which have this;

"Avoidable Lack of Care: Typical Caution
The yellow flags were difficult to see. The approaching driver was unsighted because of circuit topography, other cars or bandwidth limitations (i.e. number of cars that are visible). The cars from the incident were resetting or driving unpredictably. The approaching driver slowed down but contact was made with the cars from the incident."

Whilst the yellow flags were not shown I feel a Caution is more appropriate then the next level down to reflect the fact that, notwithstanding flags, Mike could have been more cautious and slowed more then he did. It also reflects the fact that Hannah was not at fault here. Hannah, whilst not spinning, can be considered part of the incident as he had to slow.


Server replay time: 0h07m23s

At 6m54s Ross takes a solo spin finding himself facing backwards. He then drives backwards for a distance, possibly to put himself in the position of rejoining on a straight rather then a corner. Ross then goes to rejoin, but appears to struggle, and by 7m23s is spreadeagled across the track. In the meantime Hannah has come upon the incident and slows to get round Ross. Whilst doing this he is hit by Sky. There are really two aspects to look at here;

1) Is Ross to be penalised for the Rejoin? Well he actually does his best to rejoin safely although the whole process is somewhat convoluted and takes nearly 30 seconds. When he finds himself across the track and realises cars are approaching he does the right thing and waits to allow some predictability for cars trying to avoid him. The actual coming together between Hannah and Sky may be a consequence of the rejoin but is not caused by the rejoin. Accordingly I cannot find fault in what Ross did excepting, in those circumstances, perhaps a reset might have been a much simpler option. However that is easy to say with hindsight.

2) Hannah and Sky's coming together; approaching the corner the flagman is clearly waving yellows. Hannah does the right thing and slows right down to be on the safe side. He rounds the corner, see's Ross and moves right to go round him. At this point he is hit in the rear by Sky. Sky can see the yellow flag too and obviously slows to make the corner BUT when he rounds onto the straight, where he can clearly see a stricken Ross with Hannah approaching, he actually accelerates. It is not for me to put myself in Sky's mind but, perhaps, he decided there was a potential gap to make a place on Hannah. The reason is irrelevant as the fact is, despite warning flags and seeing a car lobstered across the track with another car clearly attempting to go round, instead of slowing he goes faster. That is much more serious then the incident at 2m36s. Our incident approach rules have this;

"Total Lack of Care: Penalty 3 Places
The yellow flags were clearly visible. The cars and debris from the incident were clearly visible. The cars from the incident were either stationary or moving very slowly. The approaching driver made no attempt to slow down and contact was made with the cars from the incident."
The 'incident' in this case is Ross spreadeagled and stationary across the track. Again Hannah, whilst not spinning, can be considered part of the incident as he had to slow.

The next penalty down, Blatant, would only apply if Ross had been moving. The speeding up towards an incident really means only the most severe penalty can apply.

Special mention must also go to Dave Rainier, the first driver to come across Ross having a wobbly, who did a textbook manouvre to safely avoid him. A great lesson in evasive driving.

August 14, 2011, 10:57:10 PM +0100 - Sandown (1962-83) - UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Works (67)
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Hristo Itchov
 HikiWazaRacing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 1 1:05.358
107.417mph
1 48:53.580
105.300mph
44 1:05.618
106.992mph
Firestone  
Beefpie
 
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 2 +0.118
107.224mph
2 +2.620
105.206mph
44 1:05.824
106.657mph
Goodyear  
Baab
 
Lotus 49 (Cosworth) F1 1967 3 +0.900
105.958mph
3 +1L
103.552mph
43 1:06.426
105.690mph
Firestone  
Samb
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 5 +2.117
104.047mph
4 +51.589
101.752mph
43 1:07.705
103.694mph
Goodyear  
fpolicardi
 Team7
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 7 +3.876
101.404mph
5 +3L
95.888mph
41 1:09.169
101.499mph
Goodyear  
Arf Arf Arf
 
Ferrari 312 (1967) F1 1967 4 +1.823
104.503mph
6 +37L
99.802mph
7 1:08.474
102.529mph
Disco
Firestone  
EvilClive
 HikiWazaRacing
Honda RA300 F1 1967 6 +2.448
103.539mph
7 +38L
99.423mph
6 1:08.216
102.917mph
Disco
Firestone  
john roberts
 
Brabham BT24 (Repco) F1 1967 8 +8.169
95.483mph
8 +42L
90.280mph
2 1:13.241
95.856mph
Disco
Goodyear  
Gpg UKGPL
 
BRM P115 F1 1967 9 9 DNS ---
---
Goodyear  

Moderator's Report

A moderators dream; nice and clean lap one and no reported incidents. Keep these coming...

SimRacing.org.uk Lap Records
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1967
1:05.358
107.407mph
Hristo Itchov
Qualifying
Honda RA300August 14, 2011, 10:57:10 PM +0100
S21GrW
Grand Prix Legends
F1 1967
1:05.618
106.981mph
Hristo Itchov
Race
Honda RA300August 14, 2011, 10:57:10 PM +0100
S21GrW
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]
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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 21 (2011) Works (67) - Sandown 68 - Aug 14  (Read 10511 times)
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vosblod
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« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2011, 11:13:58 AM +0100 »

All I can say is per the report above the reason for the pass is not relevant as the fact is flags were showing for an incident and you accelerated rather then slowed. Passing or lapping caution still needs to be taken, the only difference in a lapping situation is the driver being lapped must, as far as possible, try to let you by as soon as possible. They would not be expected to try and let a car by when they are themselves attempting to avoid hitting a stricken car.
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BadBlood
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« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2011, 02:23:31 PM +0100 »

I believe that passing of any kind under yellows is not allowed in real life racing unless exceptional circumstances apply. Is that not so?
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« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2011, 02:38:09 PM +0100 »

I believe that passing of any kind under yellows is not allowed in real life racing unless exceptional circumstances apply. Is that not so?

I think it only applies to gaining a position against a direct competitor(s) within a yellow flag zone, and I doubt it's valid for all racing series in existence.
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« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2011, 02:47:36 PM +0100 »

Yellow flags are a grey area, but I believe they apply to all cars, traveling at, or approaching racing speed. smartass
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« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2011, 04:05:51 PM +0100 »

I am pretty sure that it does not just apply to direct competition since you have to be ready to stop in case marshals are on the track. There was an incident last year where Vettel passed (a lapped) Trulli under yellows and it went to the stewards. He was OK because Trulli had a seperate problem, but the fact that it was referred at all indicates that any passing, even of a lapped racer, is a no-no in F1 and that is what we are simulating.
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« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2011, 04:33:11 PM +0100 »

The point of not passing in yellow flag zone is simply to prevent a driver behind from gaining an advantage against a driver in front who has arrived first where the zone is and has chosen (or was forced) to slow down. It's not so much to do with safety. You can't obviously gain an advantage over a backmarker, so it logically applies to directo competitors only. Marshals are not allowed to go on the track, yellow flags or not, so any passing maneuvers can be executed without putting marshals at danger. As for the drivers, they already accept the risks involved.

In any case, let's not use modern F1 as an example, because it's an outrage how much they've taken control and forbid all the little things that are the essence of racing. If we use modern F1 as a guideline, we might as well not race at all, lol.

The point is, we don't even have marshals, so the only problem I see is gaining advantage in a yellow zone. Since it's next to impossible to know who has seen what flags on their GPL client, it should only be an issue when an actual incident happens. Otherwise I'd have to ask for a review of hundreds of situations where I was passed for a position at a yellow flag zone, or I have passed other cars for position in the same manner...
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2011, 05:00:14 PM +0100 »

For future reference only, I'm not after penalties for anybody in the Privateers race, but I note from the replay that one or two drivers took there shift-r while stationary in the pits, thus avoiding the need to actually take a shift-r and then return to the pits for a stop and go. Is this allowed?
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vosblod
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« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2011, 05:01:50 PM +0100 »

Hmm we are in danger of getting too specific about an incident. Mind you I guess a valid point is being raised re flags and Sky seems happy to discuss it.

Putting aside F1 rules UKGPL rules have this to say on Yellow Flags;
"Yellow and green flags
Drivers have a duty to drive safely and well within their limits when they have passed a yellow flag. Stay on the racing line unless it is blocked. Drivers may not overtake any car they are racing with, until they are sure they have passed a green flag or they are sure they have passed the incident and the green flag has been taken in. (Sometimes a yellow flag is shown when a car loses and then quickly regains control, so the green flag may be gone by the time the driver passes the next marshall)."
So, passing a lapped car under yellows is not directly banned. Depends how you define 'racing with'; even a lapped car forms part of the race as they are racing and on the track and in front of you.

However, nowhere have I said Sky is being penalised for an attempted pass/overtake. The penalty is for a lack of care approaching an incident so, as said before, whether Hannah was in a race situation or being lapped is irrelevant.
As an aside, due to the flagman waving a yellow, Hannah would not have had the opportunity to see a Blue flag and we cannot assume everyone has Pribluda so it can't be taken for granted he knew Sky wished to lap him.

The point of not passing in yellow flag zone is simply to prevent a driver behind from gaining an advantage against a driver in front who has arrived first where the zone is and has chosen (or was forced) to slow down. It's not so much to do with safety. You can't obviously gain an advantage over a backmarker, so it logically applies to directo competitors only. Marshals are not allowed to go on the track, yellow flags or not, so any passing maneuvers can be executed without putting marshals at danger. As for the drivers, they already accept the risks involved.
I disagree. It's more to prevent even more collisions occuring. If we just ignore yellows and incidents ahead our pile-up rate could start mounting. Anyway as I say, in this instance, the penalty is not for an attempted pass/overtake.

The point is, we don't even have marshals, so the only problem I see is gaining advantage in a yellow zone. Since it's next to impossible to know who has seen what flags on their GPL client, it should only be an issue when an actual incident happens. Otherwise I'd have to ask for a review of hundreds of situations where I was passed for a position at a yellow flag zone, or I have passed other cars for position in the same manner...
If there is no incident it's unlikely to be reported and hence penalised. An exception would be the GT warm-up lap where it is clear you must not pass other cars. I would say, in this particular incident, Ross had been struggling for 30 odd seconds so the yellow would have been showing for a while.

In any case, let's not use modern F1 as an example, because it's an outrage how much they've taken control and forbid all the little things that are the essence of racing. If we use modern F1 as a guideline, we might as well not race at all, lol.
Grin
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vosblod
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« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2011, 05:06:51 PM +0100 »

For future reference only, I'm not after penalties for anybody in the Privateers race, but I note from the replay that one or two drivers took there shift-r while stationary in the pits, thus avoiding the need to actually take a shift-r and then return to the pits for a stop and go. Is this allowed?
Hmm I looked at every single reset that showed up in the Mechanical Report and everyone appeared to go round and Stop n Go after the Sh/R? The only time I saw someone reset near the pits was when Mike J blew an engine and then pulled over to the side/entrance to the pit lane and reset. However he then went round and did a full SnG. Am I missing something? I rely on the GPLRA report to pick up everything.
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2011, 05:39:39 PM +0100 »

No problem.  Cool
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« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2011, 06:45:47 PM +0100 »

Putting aside F1 rules UKGPL rules have this to say on Yellow Flags;
"Yellow and green flags
Drivers have a duty to drive safely and well within their limits when they have passed a yellow flag. Stay on the racing line unless it is blocked. Drivers may not overtake any car they are racing with, until they are sure they have passed a green flag or they are sure they have passed the incident and the green flag has been taken in. (Sometimes a yellow flag is shown when a car loses and then quickly regains control, so the green flag may be gone by the time the driver passes the next marshall)."
So, passing a lapped car under yellows is not directly banned. Depends how you define 'racing with'; even a lapped car forms part of the race as they are racing and on the track and in front of you.

For me this rule is simple: No lapping under yellow flags.

I'm not an motorsport expert, but I've never heard about racing series where drivers can lap slower cars under yellow flags(but I heard about series, where drivers can un-lap themselves).
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2011, 07:35:40 PM +0100 »

The basic principle of yellow flags is to warn you of danger up ahead. Anything else is made up by the racing series authorities. And as for GPL, you can't really know if a driver has seen yellow flags (or other flags), or not, as well as IF the driver has seen the flags even if they were being waved/shown at that moment. So I'm glad we don't go and penalize such things directly, because half of the time it would be unfair.

And no, I don't think we were discussing this particular incident, but rather just the general topic of yellow flag situations. In my opinion any pre-determined rule on how to act on the track is bound to failure, because you don't have time to think when things happen, you have to make quick decisions. It's more about having common sense, trained habits, respect and predictable behavior. All that is what avoids accidents, not following made up yellow flag rules to a T.

As I said, passing under yellow flags happens in almost every race we have in GPL, because situations just unfold rapidly, in an instant. Now if someone is willing to give up a position when they realize they have passed under yellow, that's up to them, but I have not seen anyone doing that.  Grin
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« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2011, 07:37:03 PM +0100 »

The rules regarding yellow flags Vosblod has outlined, closely match those of the 1960's.   Precise circumstances for exacting rules, were too hard, or too limiting to pin down.  There was always a degree of reliance on common sense, connected to individual driving skill, as well as an element of self-preservation involved.  We each still have these, to varying degrees.  Roll Eyes
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hannah
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« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2011, 01:45:11 AM +0100 »

Hello,

To fully understand the incident it would be best to view the replay to see Skymole did not have the room to pass considering speed and the barrier.

It is quite interesting that Sky went underneath my car hence the after race dialog mad by Mr. Neilson. I am sure he said "good grief" when he saw that.

Malcolm
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