UKPnG Season 8 Grand Touring Championship - Barber - Oct 3

[Walter Conn]

No problem for me Frex. Your car was to the inside of the driving line on the S/F straight.
I accidently bumped Nik at the start. I am sorry for roughing you up. You don't need enemies when you have a teammate like me. 
I spent most of the race chasing Mark and Goldtop. I should congratulate them for driving fast in a slower car.
I did make it past them once when they had an off, but they passed me back when I went off-road later in the race.
Good race everyone, hope it was enjoyable! - Walter

[NPP]

I was enjoying that too.. ..running close laps with Geoffers, Legzy and Otto, but then suffered another pc crash. Probably left my car frozen on the track - really hope it didn't cause any problems for those behind me.

no problems, we got around you.

I was very disappointed at my lack of pace but still had a good race in a group of four cars at the bottom of the top ten that stayed together for most of the race (Clive, Ed, Mogget and me). Mogget probably worked hardest with the slowest car in the group - I had the fastest but still finished last in our little group. Good racing, but I'd better find some speed ...

[Mark J]

Unlucky Legz and frex    no problems with either of your frozen cars, didn't see Legz and yours was on the s/f straight.

Tough race tonight, love this track, though its never nice to oversteery 911's ! Qualied as well as I could and raced as hard as I could but to no avail against so many faster cars. My only fun of the night was chasing Walter hard for half the race for a measly 12th/13th spot. There weren't even the usual number of retirements or incidents which I found unusual for this track that's eager to bite! so hardly moved up the order over the race distance.

Now I know i don't have to take this car, but i'm also not one who just picks the fastest car at each event either, like some on here!  By being true to my faith I suffered badly in the 911 tonight. Its just totally outgunned by this group, has been all season and its a tad unfair ! Cars passed me easily down the straights.  

It would be a much closer grouping if you didn't allow the faster variant of each capri and escort. The poor Alfa is even worse off against them. This is not idle complaining, its backed up by the hard figures:-

911 2.5ST =       271bhp, 1010kg = 268bhp/tonne
RS1600 Escort = 263bhp, 890kg  = 296bhp/tonne
RS2600 Capri=   296bhp, 1050kg = 282bhp/tonne
Alfa Gulia =        237bhp, 1060kg = 224bhp/tonne

a much fairer Porsche to use against the faster capri and escort is the RSR2.8  = 303bhp, 1010kg = 300bhp/tonne. That gives it a few bhp edge in performance but that's countered by the tricky tail happy nature! Its certainly closer to the capri and escort than the 2.5ST is!

However, if you did want to bring the current group together then you should only allow the normal variant of them
RS Escort = 240bhp, 910kg = 264bhp/tonne
RS Capri = 280bhp, 1050kg = 267bhp/tonne
911 ST                               = 268 " "
See much closer ! Its the alfa that is still out of pace, so another car could do with being shoe-horned into this group...a US muscle car perhaps?  its a great group of cars but a bit more discipline in the choices would even it up nicely  

[phspok]

Results and Replay Posted

I had some fun chasing Alex and Bob. I had wanted to use the Escort, but I kept getting booted as possible cheat
so I went with the slower Alfa.

Nowthen..... @MJ I think you know very well that's it's not all about power to weight.
I could easily counter your "tricky tail happy nature" with "Turns in better than anything else, and has better traction out of the corners than anything else"

I only include a Pork because some people seem to like having one there even if it's a bit slower, perhaps I should just leave them out unless
they are an obvious match.

Embarrassing experience on here says that if the Pork is not at least 3 secs slower for me than the other cars it will wipe the floor in the hands of
a good 911 driver. I would prefer that the 911-2.5 was a bit faster to match the escorts
I would prefer the RSR3.0 was a bit faster to better match the 3100 Capri but they aren't

I have had some great help from Tudor in testing for relative Porche pace as I am so rubbish in them, so I am allowing them when I might not have
but they simply don't fit well with other cars.

If I use the slower Escorts then the Capri 2600 runs away. If I used the 2.8 Porche then it would run away at most tracks, as it has done when I thought
it would be a good match.
Oddly perhaps, but it's not just about making the races revolve around whether a Porche has a hard time or not.
And I did shoehorn a yank tank in. Someone suggested the BOSS302 might have been a better fit, and that may have been true
but I am reluctant to mess with the cars on the day of a race unless there is a glaring isue.

Getting a good mix with any Porche is always going to be a tough one. I had some stick earlier in the year for putting on events where the
911s had an advantage "Is it another be kind to Pork week" for example. Some you lose some you don't.

[Mogget]

You can't really win when it comes to selecting car groups in P&G3, so I wouldn't worry about "minor complaints", Matt

As for the race, well.......it was easily the best race that I have taken part in at Birmingham! It was no secret during practice that I generally do not like this track. It has never given me that special "I want to race" feeling that so many other tracks have. Nevertheless, I decided to give it a go in the slower Escort (I just enjoy the challenge), and managed to qualify P11 on the 23 car grid. A good turnout always makes things more interesting, so I was hopeful that things would be different for me this time.

It ended up being a really good race. I settled down in P12 early on, and slowly pulled away from the cars behind me. There was a three car battle up ahead for many laps (Clive, NPP, and Animal Ed), and I was just about able to keep track of them several seconds behind. Then I very slowly started to close the gap (probably because they were occupied with each other at this point). Finally, I caught them, and that's when the action became more exciting for me. NPP and I swapped places a couple of times, and Animal Ed dropped several seconds behind after a minor off track excursion.

NPP and Clive then had a close battle, with my Escort trailing very close behind them. I kept pace with them, and then passed NPP when he ran wide. Based on what I could see from my car, it looked like he was suffering from understeer later in the race. Anyway, that left me chasing Clive's Capri. I was close to him at times, but I couldn't quite manage to catch him. Then I noticed that Animal Ed was closing the gap behind me. I don't know if my tyres were starting to suffer, or whether Animal had pressed the NOX button, but it was fortunate for me that the race ended at that point. We crossed the line barely a tenth of a second apart!

I was very pleased with P8 in the slower Escort. I enjoy driving this car, and hope to do so again soon!

[goldtop]

Thought I might be able to have some mid grid action in the Alfa and MJ seemed to be a likely adversary until we both made mistakes allowing each other through. Sadly after a few laps I found myself running in a gap which continued to race end 

Nice turnout 

[Mark J]

It's not about making the porker great, it's about making the group close and have a great varied grid!  Plus giving folks a chance to drive a favourite car and be able to 'race' rather than the glory hunter race winner.   Assuming these cars are modelled with the stated weights and bhp then how can the bhp per tonne not be a valid point!? I haven't tried a normal Capri v a normal escort but the stats say it's a 3bhp/t difference between
the two and considering an escort handles better than a Capri I can't see how a Capri would have any advantage. Have you tested the two head to head on a fast track and a twisty track? It seems we'd prefer a grid full of escorts and capris (or whatever the quickest car happens to be!)
Regarding discounting the 2.8RSR, it's fine that an escort has a 28bhp and a 120kg advantage over the 911ST but not okay that the rsr might have a 7bhp advantage albeit being 120kg heavier?...whys that then exactly? 

Thought I was being helpful getting all the stats but bo**cks to ya   will just pick the same car as 95% of the grid next time  

[johnw]

That was a tough race! I was all set to use the Alfa SA as, even though it wasn't a patch on the Fords, it was still the quickest of the Alfas and a lot of fun to wrestle round the track. However, when I calculated fuel it looked like it would only manage 25 laps so I decided to take the Escort instead, after seeing the impressive times that Guiseppe & company were doing in quali.

That said though, I had to ask how much fuel to take in the Escort as each time I looked at XD the usage per lap was doubling, so I suspect the Alfa would have been OK after all. Strange.

Anyway, taking the Escort made for a great race Guiseppe got the jump on me at the start and I set off in hot persuit. We were both quick in different parts of the curcuit and he defended well in the only couple of places I could have attempted a pass I was aware of Federico getting closer and closer in the mirrors as the laps went by, but luckily for me Guiseppe eventually made small mistake getting the power down on the way out of the last corner and I managed to get my nose inside for T1.

I pulled ahead a little way after that and was able to maintin the gap to Federico when the tyres were going away near the end of the race. Great fun

[johnw]

I've just noticed my car says 'Escort TC (70s)' rather than 'Escort RS'. Anyone know if there is a difference?

[Mogget]

I will ask Luc Marqs (DucFreak) about that, John.

[Alex vV]

Unofficial LapChart


I like to dedicate this finish in the 911 to a friend of mine who recently had to part with his (real) classic VW Beetle.

(I you happen to read this, I was planning on a more fitting tribute than finishing last. Sorry mate  )

[SpecialKS]

Had to miss this one due to three days without internet and it looks like
the German Telekom ist still working on it... 

[Mark J]

just ran my own tests at Barber park to test out my theory about the car groupings. As I thought, if we had just used the 'normal' 240bhp RS1600s and 280bhp RS2600's we would have got similar lap times to both the Alfa that Goldtop drove in the race or the 911ST, making a great close on-track fight between 4 different cars!
I ran 5 laps in each car with 40min race fuel and no setup tweaks to default other than bumping the springs up front and rear.
I did a 1:39.8 in the capri and a 1:39.6 in the escort.  No doubt i would shave more time of that with some tweaks and more laps in each. Both were also easier to drive on the limit than the ST !  The stock Pantera would probably fit in with this group of cars too at 249bhp/ton but not tested it yet. Could even throw in the 914 @ 261bhp/t

Likewise looking at the laptimes from the race, If you had wanted to use the faster 263bhp Escort and 296bhp Capri, then the RSR2.8 would have been perfect for a good fight! I took that car out for 5 laps, 40mins race fuel, same tweaks and managed a 1:37.1 which would have meant it could have fought in the top 8, more on a par at least.

So basically there are two distinct groups of cars that could be used at different events from this same batch of race cars.

RS1600 (240)
RS2600 (280)
Alfa 2000GTA
Porsche 911ST

RS1600(263)
RS2600(296)
Porsche RSR2.8
BMW 12v (maybe)

The surer close racing bet is the first group, but second groups worth a race to see how they square up.

I was convinced this great group could be closed up for future events. Surely we all want closer racing and to see a varied grid of cars to race against? that is after all the aim of creating these car groups. Feel free to try them yourselves if you don't believe me.

[phspok]

Thanks for the testing Mark, I try to make the racing close and fair for all. I deliberately put in a slower and/or easier to drive
option so hot shoes can take it if they want a challenge, or people can take someting that is less demanding.
It's not intended that it's always the Pork that gets the short straw. Though I do stand solidly by my assertion that
it is not just about power/weight.

We have run "some" races this year where the 2.8 had a clear advantage in the right hands, so I am reluctant to use it
when "I" get similar times, as experience has proved that I am carp with rear engine cars.

I will run two events soon as I can with both your suggestions, and we will see what happens.

[Mark J]

No probs Matt, pleased to help, wish I could do car group testing more often. I'm convinced the first group are well matched without problem, the 2nd group won't be proved until a race using them I guess, and even then you can't fully quantify if an alien takes a certain car and zooms off into the sunset.

Re the power-weight, obviously no it's not the only factor but it is a fundamental in racing! But things like torque and handling are just as key naturally , not to mention the driver!:)