UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Novices Trophy (65) - Zandvoort (1967) - Nov 9

[Hristo Itchov]

I don't think AA is accusing anybody. He's just trying to tell you that the way the rules are applied to the situation is not fully clear and creates some ambiguity, so a detailed explanation would help lift up any doubts. Both for yellow card points and shift-r/pit stop.

I think you're being unnecessarily hostile, Mike. Read his posts again and you'll see what I mean. Even if there's some irritation in his way of writing, it only stems from lack of understanding on these issues and I think he's not alone in that, I'm also a bit puzzled how some decisions came to be. It has nothing to do with accusations, but an attempt to clarify things and fill-in the gaps in the rules if there appear to be any.

[Ronniepeterson]

I'm sorry AA you feel I deliberately waited for you to come along and let you crash into me so as to avoid a stop and go (playing chicken I think you called it). It never crossed my mind and never will. Sure I race to win but second only to racing for fun with other drivers like yourself. Take the next race Castle Coombe for example. I remember some fantastic laps at the end of the race with some guy in a lotus trying to get past me ending in last lap last ditch overtaking manoeuvre which was never going to work and running into me from behind. It could have taken me out but I was lucky and he went off instead and I held onto the hard fought place. Just a racing incident as far as I was concerned. Hold on I remember now it was you behind me. Sorry AA if I upset your race and apologies to Al who I rear ended (which I owned up to immediately). I can assure anyone overtaking/lapping me I DO NOT drive my car any wider than it needs to be. Safe driving everyone and see you all at the next round. Last but not least big thanks to Mike for the moderating.

[vosblod]

Guys I think we need to get a handle on this.
Firstly there are reasons why we submit Incident Reports and try to avoid specific forum debate. Correspondence regarding incidents should be kept confidential and private between the drivers concerned, and whilst public debate regarding general issues raised is healthy, open discussion can lead to unnecessarily antagonistic situations.
The moderators give up their free time to review incidents and, I can assure you, decisions regarding penalties are not taken lightly. All incidents are reviewed in light of our penalty guidelines here but we do have to make impartial judgements.
With my moderators hat off I would feel putting a question mark against the word moderator and asking for Mr Somebody could be construed as derogatory. We have human emotions and I appreciate the way things are written can be misconstrued but let's be polite.
There is an appeal system in place and, rather then just myself making a snap decision, I have the able assistance of our Senior Consultant Clive.

Anyway the why's and wherefore's of the specific penalties aside, which should be submitted via the appeal process, there seem to be three issues;

Free reset

And, especially, someone who spins by himself, bends the suspension, then limps around and crashes into someone else,  and then pretends he has to take a S-R  for that crash gets....a pat on the back from the moderator (?)

I feel this is a confidential issue that should be kept private. I will not comment suffice to say I would recommend a review of the GPLRA mechanical report.

Penalty Points System
As Phil has already mentioned an explanation of the system is here.
So, using that system, your points are as follows;
Mosport - 2 places/penalty points (+ 4 yellow cards)
Zandvoort - 1 place/penalty point (+ 2 yellow cards, total now 6)
Every 2 yellow card points a driver has above 2 will automatically incur an extra lost place on subsequent penalties and warnings.

Hence, having 6 yellows and incurring a single penalty at Zandvoort, loses you an extra place totalling 4. This now leaves you with 4 yellows (ie the 6 minus 2 for the lost place).
I hope that clarifies things.

Resets - Stop and Go's
As Phil mentioned the rules are here.
I must be honest I have never looked at this line in detail;
'A racing incident; for example, the driver is knocked off the track during an overtake'

We have always treated it as a no fault Shift/R unless the driver concerned is at fault. Neither would I expect a Stop and Go where an incident ahead was completely unavoidable. Common sense needs to apply here and each incident needs to be taken on it's own specific merits.

[Artiglietti]

Tim...I think the confusion stems from the fact that the severity of the penalty doesnt count toward the number of yellows. In the example within the rules a penalty losing only 1 place is not mentioned.  So 1 penalty, if it is for 1 or 2 places, is always 2 yellow cards. This means I got 2 penalties in the first 4 races (one lost me 2 places, the other only 1), and they sum up to 4 yellow cards on my board. Not 6 Tim, as for my latest understanding of the process. Or you got it right?

-'Mr Somebody' was in response to Mikes comment 'somebody can explain the yellow card system better than me'.

-If a moderator can't explain the penalty system, how is he going to apply it? For this, but not only for this, the question marks. They are meant to be derogatory. Mikes attitude is often blunt and dismissive, I have had enough, he can get a bit of his medicine back and surely will be able to cope.

-Common sense in applying the rules is fine, as long as it is applied consistently. The way rules about s&g are stated is however confusing, as you yourself imply in your post.

-I did obviously check GPLRA mechanical report before submitting my report about Ronnies clash. But, have you? I am sending you a PM in a minute. Please reply when you have time.

-I think this obsession with privacy also leads to lack of clarity, if Ronnie had a clear explanation for the incident to give in a direct way in the forum, all the fuss would have been avoided. 

- For the game to go on I need you to organize it, but you also need me to come and play it. Please lets not start the 'if it werent for me' whinging carol.



 

[Artiglietti]

Oh, and thank you to Hristo, who took the time to intervene, and admitted some confusion about the application of the rules on his side as well. I did appreciate that.

[vosblod]

Hi Attilio,
Yes Mike's a big boy and can look after himself but we also need to keep some decorum on the forums which is why I mentioned it.
Re penalties - what you are looking at is just an extreme example. You get 2 yellows for each penalty place - your board is now showing 4 as 2 have already been expunged by the loss of the extra place.

Yes I agree common sense needs to be applied in a consistent manner, I'm always loathe to change the rules (they can't cover everything but have stood us in good stead for many seasons) but perhaps some clarification on S&G's might be in order in this instance. Yes I had not studied that rule and I don't know the rulebook inside out but I know where to look them up

Anyway I look forward to the PM and, of course, we need you and everyone else or we have no league. Constructive criticism, suggestions and ideas are always welcome. Your highlighting of the Stop and Go rule is a case in point.

[Podkrecony_Ziutek]

-'Mr Somebody' was in response to Mikes comment 'somebody can explain the yellow card system better than me'.

-If a moderator can't explain the penalty system, how is he going to apply it? For this, but not only for this, the question marks. They are meant to be derogatory. Mikes attitude is often blunt and dismissive, I have had enough, he can get a bit of his medicine back and surely will be able to cope.

As for not explaining the points system fully to you, it was 11:20 at night and I was going to bed. I suggest that a little more patience may be in order

[Artiglietti]

Tim, I havent lost any extra place....

[Artiglietti]

@ Podkrecony

yeah, but also:

The points system is not that simple if I remember correctly, so for example a single warning may = 1 point but a 1 place penalty may be more points. Points don't equate directly to penalties.

Somebody can explain the yellow card and points system more fully than I can.

[vosblod]

Tim, I havent lost any extra place....

You have 2 penalty points instead of one.

[BadBlood]

Gentlemen - toys back in prams please.

It can get quite emotional when looking at racing incidents but surely the rule has to be:

1. Be polite
2. Be honest
3. Trust other people's integrity and sportmanship.

I have done a LOT of looking at other peoples racing and nobody in UKGPL is unfair deliberately. I myself have four penalty points but have NEVER intended to cause problems. Indeed I appealed about an incident which the moderator's looked at carefully. I still have the points but I appreciated the time put into it.

Let's keep it civil so that we can enjoy the racing.

[Artiglietti]

The issue wasnt what people meant to do, thats in their mind and it is not possible to clarify it.

The issue is about what they tried to make of it afterwards. And this is a fact, easy to understand using replay and GPLRA reports. A fact that stands clear wether or not the moderators and others decide to turn a blind eye on it.

However, looking at the positives, knowing you can get away with this does make for a very handy information to have.

[vosblod]

And this is a fact, easy to understand using replay and GPLRA reports. A fact that stands clear wether or not the moderators and others decide to turn a blind eye on it.

Sorry for butting in as I wasn't the moderator, but I do object to this implication.
A fact is something incontrovertible and with absolute proof. Blind eyes cannot and would not be turned in any circumstances.

[miner2049er]

I don't think AA is accusing anybody.

I think you're being unnecessarily hostile, Mike.

I see parts of the forum that you don't. I know what was inferred.

-If a moderator can't explain the penalty system, how is he going to apply it?

I can, I chose not to at that time. I apply penalties for each incident and judge each incident on its own merits. Only when a regular or frequent pattern of behaviour becomes apparent do I need to concern myself with the totalling of yellow cards etc.

They are meant to be derogatory. Mikes attitude is often blunt and dismissive,

Examples please? I have rarely if ever conversed with you. If however you feel I am not moderating the division on a fair and impartial basis then please submit your feelings to the Chief Moderator who will look into the matter on your behalf.

I have had enough, he can get a bit of his medicine back and surely will be able to cope.

My Mummy said to ignore that bit.

-I think this obsession with privacy also leads to lack of clarity, if Ronnie had a clear explanation for the incident to give in a direct way in the forum, all the fuss would have been avoided.

I disagree. Forum debates and arguments that drag on and on are never helpful and each driver submitting their own incident reports to the moderators is the cleanest way to do it. If at the end of the moderation process there is a disagreement then the appeal process can be used.

For the game to go on I need you to organize it

This is UKGPL Season 20. I think that speaks for itself.

[Hristo Itchov]

Why not just make stop&go mandatory for any shift-r, regardless if you're to blame or not. It would lift up a lot of doubt, ambiguity and spare a lot of work for the moderators. It's very difficult in the heat of racing to judge a situation objectively sometimes and you have a few seconds to make a decision whether you were to blame for an accident or not. Otherwise there would be a lot of races decided/adjusted outside the track and that's unwanted IMO. Let races be decided on track and just accept that racing incidents can, and will happen, and sometimes you get the short end of the stick.