UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Novices Trophy (65) - Zandvoort (1967) - Nov 9

[miner2049er]

Why not just make stop&go mandatory for any shift-r, regardless if you're to blame or not. It would lift up a lot of doubt, ambiguity and spare a lot of work for the moderators. It's very difficult in the heat of racing to judge a situation objectively sometimes and you have a few seconds to make a decision whether you were to blame for an accident or not. Otherwise there would be a lot of races decided/adjusted outside the track and that's unwanted IMO. Let races be decided on track and just accept that racing incidents can, and will happen, and sometimes you get the short end of the stick.

It's an interesting thought and one I've had before. It does more accurately model real world racing that way, for example an innocent victim of a crash may still need to pit to change a punctured tyre or replace a broken front wing for example, meaning the difference between 1st and 5th.

There is always the option of not taking it and if found to be at fault adding 30seconds on at the end, but in Novices I look at all incidents anyway so it is no extra work in that division.

Perhaps we could include that thought as a part of our mid season review and canvas driver opinion.

[maddog]

Why not just make stop&go mandatory for any shift-r, regardless if you're to blame or not.

I don't see that blameless driving would improve matters on the track.

[Hristo Itchov]

Why not just make stop&go mandatory for any shift-r, regardless if you're to blame or not.

I don't see that blameless driving would improve matters on the track.

What do you mean? There would still be penalties handed out for those who are responsible for an accident, if any. It doesn't change a thing in that regard.

My point was only to avoid judging whether you are allowed a free shift-r or not in the heat of action, because it's rarely a clear situation and it almost always opens up a can of worms and moves the outcome of a race outside the track, after the race is over.

[Artiglietti]

This argument is being dragged on and on because of your continued opportunistic avoidance of the issue at stake.

If you lack the tools for an articulate discussion in public, then do have a private one from behind the moderator shield, but please quit wasting everybody's time with ridiculously unsubstantial replies.

Chief moderator has been pmmed, and has forwarded those exchanges to you.

The issue has now moved on to the fairness and trustworthiness of your so called moderation, which lacks any kind of moderating effect, weakly confusing authority with a right to prevarication. It is far too easy to go and hide behind the chief moderator, try and put up some kind of articulate argument on your own. You could find out you are actually able to.





 

[Hristo Itchov]

I tried to defend your case, AA, but I think it's you who's now going overboard. As someone said, these people do all this in their spare time and by free will, so there is no obligation. As a human element involved in it, mistakes are bound to happen from time to time, so why not you both just clear this out without involving negative emotions in it? I'm also interested to hear a clarification on the shift-r and penalty points rules, but there's no need to go beyond that in such a manner as you do.

[miner2049er]

This argument is being dragged on and on because of your continued opportunistic avoidance of the issue at stake.

I am avoiding nothing and have made my opinion on the matter public in the form of the race report at the top of the thread. People may disagree with it and can lodge an appeal in the proper manner.

If you lack the tools for an articulate discussion in public, then do have a private one from behind the moderator shield, but please quit wasting everybody's time with ridiculously unsubstantial replies.

I am not the one wasting time and for me the matter is finished when I publish the report unless an appeal is lodged. Again, I urge you to lodge an appeal if you disagree with it.

The issue has now moved on to the fairness and trustworthiness of your so called moderation, which lacks any kind of moderating effect, weakly confusing authority with a right to prevarication.

As I said earlier, if you think I am being unfair or not being impartial, make your complaint official.

It is far too easy to go and hide behind the chief moderator

I have not gone to hide behind anyone, I am telling you to go to him and complain about me officially.

try and put up some kind of articulate argument on your own. You could find out you are actually able to.

Far from being drawn into a public argument which helps nobody, I really do not having anything further to discuss with you on this matter. You are not only being quite rude and provocative but you risk alienating yourself against not only the moderation team but your fellow competitors.

This is supposed to be a game, a hobby, something enjoyable, and for me it is just that. When it ceases to be enjoyable I will walk away. I would urge anybody else here to hold a similar philosophy.

[Artiglietti]

You are not only being quite rude and provocative but you risk alienating yourself against not only the moderation team but your fellow competitors.

OH, will I keep my serene night of sleep in that case.......yeah, think so.

This is supposed to be a game, a hobby, something enjoyable, and for me it is just that. When it ceases to be enjoyable I will walk away. I would urge anybody else here to hold a similar philosophy.

And for me, so lets keep it that way, maybe also keeping an eye on the ones who, trying to be unnecessarily clever, spoil the fun for the others.

[BadBlood]

For the record Mike, I implicitly trust your integrity and I have found all the Moderators to be fair and helpful - even when I don't agree with the moderation (which has happened). Several have gone out of their way to offer help and constructive criticism privately. I appreciate it.

I want to put on the slate that the thing that attracted me to UKGPL was the openness and welcoming attitude - I surf these forums quite a lot and this thread is astonishing. Way too personal.

So. to everyone - c'mon. This race was a month ago. Let it go and take any frustrations out on the lap time!

Keep it kind.

[Hristo Itchov]

Mike, I don't think he meant to appeal against the judgement, but to ask for a clarification of the rules. I don't see why that can't be public, it concerns everyone and I agree on that it's needed. For instance, there are situations which are not covered by the shift-r rule in particular.

Why not separate appeals and clarification, and discuss the latter here, disregarding who insulted who and who got hurt by who, and who was at fault and why, etc...

Anyway, I do support a vote against the non-pitstop shift-r for next season, even if I don't race in the division, I think it's the right way to go.

[vosblod]

Mike, I don't think he meant to appeal against the judgement, but to ask for a clarification of the rules. I don't see why that can't be public, it concerns everyone and I agree on that it's needed. For instance, there are situations which are not covered by the shift-r rule in particular.
Why not separate appeals and clarification, and discuss the latter here, disregarding who insulted who and who got hurt by who, and who was at fault and why, etc...
Anyway, I do support a vote against the non-pitstop shift-r for next season, even if I don't race in the division, I think it's the right way to go.

I completely agree with you Hristo, general issues/clarification should be aired. I have sort of replied to the two issues but will put something more formal up asap.
As Mike says the whole Shift/R - Stop and Go issue is up for discussion prior to next season. I introduced a compulsory stop in Privateers but for different reasons.

[miner2049er]

Why not separate appeals and clarification, and discuss the latter here.

Well, yes but no

Yes we should discuss the SnG rules but not here, we will create a separate thread or perhaps discuss it in the upcoming mid season review thread rather than in this race thread where it will get lost.

even if I don't race in the division, I think it's the right way to go.

If the membership vote for it, and even though it is documented in the rules when and when not to take a SnG, if new drivers to the league are either missing it, not reading it or misunderstanding it then we need to address that.

[Phil Thornton]

There has been a lot of heated debate on this thread concerning the rules and interpretation of them.  Something for which I feel I have some responsibility for.  So I feel compelled to try to clear up a few misunderstandings. 

When I became Chief Mod in Season 14 I took over responsibility for the rules and so I got to know them quite well.  I made a few minor changes over the years but the league rules have remained reasonably intact and have served UKGPL very well. 

However there are two areas that have changed a lot.

1.  Specific rules for specific divisions.  When I started racing with UKGPL we only did one race format (original 67 cars with handicapping using pit stops).  Now we regularly use 65, 66 and 67 cars with a range of handicapping systems (chassis allocation, championship positions, tokens etc).  So each division has specific rules.  Sometimes the division specific rules can contradict and override the league rules.  This is rare but it can happen (First potential source of confusion).  If in doubt the specific rule for the division must prevail.

2.  I created the Penalty Guidelines.  The rules can be interpreted differently and hence penalties can be awarded inconsistently.  To try to improve the consistency of the incident moderation I created a set of scenarios of differing severity for the typical incidents we get in UKGPL.  These scenarios are not exhaustive but they should help the moderators decide on an appropriate "punishment" and the drivers to understand why.  If this isn't happening then it implies there is something wrong with the guidelines, as I said I do not claim they are perfect.  The term penalty is being overloaded so I've used the term "punishment" here to describe the moderator's decision.

Please note there is a difference between the "punishments" described in the penalty guidelines and the yellow card system (another potential source of confusion).  The "number of places" or "time added on" a moderator can award are manually entered into the race results system.  These are directly traceable to the moderator's decision and are easy to understand.  The yellow card system is NOT manually applied.  The race results system in SRou automatically determines the number of yellows cards and hence "Yellow card places" dropped.  This can get very complicated when several yellow cards are involved.  To work it out manually is a pain but the algorithm in SRou has been thoroughly tested and I know it is right.  The Yellow card system is used throughout all the leagues running under SRou including UKGPL.  We don't control it we just use it and trust it.  The published explanation is correct.

On the issue of trying to get a free shift R by allowing yourself to get bumped off by someone else.  I don't think this would be a sensible strategy to adopt.  You are likely to loose far more time limping around waiting for an incident to occur than would be lost simply resetting and doing a stop and go.  The suggestion that all shift Rs should be followed by a Stop&Go (and hence eliminate this potential strategy) has been tried before in Masters Season 12 but it wasn't adopted in the other divisions because it was seen as unfair on drivers that were quite clearly the innocent party.  The organizers need to make a judgement and decide on the lesser of the two evils.

Notwithstanding ambiguities in the rules, the drivers must accept the divisional moderators decision or formally appeal the the Chief Moderator.  If the rules or guidelines are at fault we normally have a mid season and end of season review where these issues can be debated.  However, it is not normally considered good practice to change the rules part way through a season.  Any rule changes should only come into force at the start of a new season.

I hope this puts some historical context on why things are the way they are and that we can move on.  I'm not saying things are perfect but there are generally good reasons why things are done in a particular way.

[Hristo Itchov]

Thanks for the thorough explanation, Phil, and I agree we should discuss it separately in its own thread when the time comes, Mike.

Just want to say that I'm not against free shift-r so much for the fact that someone can manipulate it and try to get hit on purpose to take advantage of it, but because it's not always possible to judge a situation objectively in the heat of action and from the limited point of view of your own cockpit, and a wrong decision here regarding shift-r can lead to race results being adjusted outside the track later on. Anyway, I guess I'll repeat all that when the time comes. 

[Ronniepeterson]

After a goodnights sleep let me just say. Congratulations to Vos, Blito and Ross on the 1, 2, 3 finish and commiserations to Fabio who slipped off the podium. Ross, despite your win at Castle Coombe I suspect your mirrors are going to be full of hungry wannabe contenders at Spa. With over half the season still to go watch your back, the chasing pack is coming.

[blito]

woohoo! second! Equals my best ever UKGPL result
 Once again proof of the effectiveness of finding stability and driving within you limits
Pity that i have no idea where those limits are for the next few tracks!