UKGPL Season 23 (2012) GT Team Challenge - Spa - Oct 7

[Cookie]

Yes, Tim I am with you!

So far the problems were only selfmade with GLWait.

The only problem I see at Spa is the driving through the pitlane of some guys...

I also have the fear of not reaching my pitbox if some others do allready stop.

[FullMetalGasket]

At Spa the issue of someone being in/near your spot isn't so important. If you abort and continue it'll only cost you 2 or 3 seconds

[Doni Yourth]

Just did a quickie online test with a UKGPL server featuring Axel, Evil and Alain Maurice.

Failure. 

For my handicaps to work, they must be employed prior to the member starting.  GPL apparently has a cut-off of three minutes.  If you haven't started by then, you can't at all.

End of story.  End of plan.

[BadBlood]

Still an interesting idea Doni. I'll think about it some more...

[EvilClive]

Just so that everyone knows that I do sometimes consider different solutions.....lol

My intention in introducing pitstops was to try to make the actual racing last longer.

Because of the huge performance difference between the cars in GT's, it was pretty obvious that most races would be decided in the first 50% of the race as the faster cars and drivers eased away. I felt that drivers would be lucky to have any wheel to wheel racing for the last 30% of the race, which let us be honest, makes life a little boring huh?

I did consider an option like Garth has suggested, whereby we add the handicap time at the end of the race, but as Tim and Axel have already commented this would be rather artificial and require everyone to run prib and have a calculator alongside their steering wheel to work out where they might be in the race......not what I would call racing  .

 I also wondered about something along the lines of Doni's idea, but discovered that would not work either..

I wish there was an easier way to make a pitstop that did not rely on parking your car in such a precise position, but I think that it is something that gets easier and more accurate with practice.

The only option that I have up my sleeve that would work for you drivers, but would make my moderator's job a nightmare, is to introduce multiple pitstops for the faster cars with no stop longer than 25 secs. As you will already have worked out...at least those of you who selected the 2F for Spa will have spotted this I am sure.

In a 15 lap race around Spa where the 2F needs to spend 225 secs in the pits you would be stopping almost every second lap, even if the time to get in and out of the pits was factored in. Plus drivers would need to remember how many stops they had done!!!

Just for comparison......

At present the 2F requires a  single 225 second pit stop in a 15 lap race around Spa and this allows for 10 seconds lost in slowing down and speeding up again.

So, if we assume 6 stops that already accounts for 60 seconds ( 6 x slow down and speed up) leaving 175 seconds of stationary time that would mean each stop at around 29 seconds......maybe a fraction close to the 30 second disco point??
So 7 stops would be the way to go...7 x 10 seconds= 70, leaving 155 seconds of stationary time to be divided up...each of the 7 stops would be 22 secs. In a 15 lap race with a rolling start, that would put you in the pits on laps 2,4,6,8,10,12 and 14.  Is that reasonable It should certainly keep the leaders in close proximity throughout the whole race, but I fear that all of those stops would deter people from even trying the 2F  or 2D?  what do you guys think???

[maddog]

There was another idea put forward, to keep the racing interesting, in a GT series.  Each driver could be required to drive each car once, or more during a Season.  You could limit championship leaders to slower cars.  If pitstops threaten to kill the series, it's time to consider alternatives.

[Phil Thornton]

The bit that really confused me yesterday was if the pit boxes had been moved why did the pit boards remain in the pit lane?  The reason long pit stops are feasible is if you stop in your pit box you won't get discoed.  But that assumes it is possible to identify your pit box and if we can't rely on the pit boards to help us it means long pit stops are just too risky. 

I've had a look at the track.ini file and played around with the pit stalls.  I can't work out how GPL decides where to put the pit board.  All I know is if we use the "normal" pit stall positions, I've never been discoed when I stop at my pit board.

As Clive has said, he thought about lots of different handicapping options but very few allow slow and fast cars to compete over a single race.  Over a season yes, but then drivers take turns in the faster cars and hence take turns at winning which is very boring IMO.  The problem with the GTs is that the range in performance is vast.  That was partly why the Porsche Super Cup format was used.  In a normal GT race at Spa with no handicapping who would take a Porsche?  Just taking it to collect some "tokens" or because "it was my turn" would simply produce very boring and tedious races.  At least with the pit stop format the Porsche has a genuine chance of winning a race at Spa.

[Cookie]

I think the actual system is good as it is!

The last races showed that there are good balanced handicaps given.
Of course there are some fast laps more needed for some cars on some tracks to make it better (e.g. the ChapD at Imola   )

This Spa desaster was caused by the moved pit stalls, so no problem for me to repeat in the common way.

[Hristo Itchov]

I think the actual system is good as it is!

The last races showed that there are good balanced handicaps given.
Of course there are some fast laps more needed for some cars on some tracks to make it better (e.g. the ChapD at Imola   )

This Spa desaster was caused by the moved pit stalls, so no problem for me to repeat in the common way.

Yes, I guess normally it's not an issue, however what IS an issue is serving such long pitstops if you happen to miss your pit stall. Do you reverse the car back? What if there is another car behind you? How do you creep forward over such a short pitlane when you have a near 4 minutes pitstop? My main issue is with the huge length of the pitstops, not the actual system. I liked it when it was used in 67s D1 division.

I like the alternative of using each car once per season mandatory, but it usually leads to spec racing.

[maddog]

The pitstop problem isn't with Evil's idea, it's Gpl's fault for not liking pitstops.  There's no harm in looking for something better.  A second idea would be to give everyone free car choice in race 1, and then handicap 5 pairs of drivers each race, according to championship standings, after each race. (Ignore penalties not yet assessed) I'm just suggesting, there may be alternatives, if problems continue.

[Cookie]

I did several pitstop tests at Spa with nearly 3 min none failed!
Even one when I overshoot the board a lttle, I reversed and then pushed the start button.

I keep 1st gear, no throttle and never move.
IMO its the driver who has to learn how to stop correct.

I see the problem when there are allready several cars waiting, so I had the idea of doing another lap if this situation occurs.

[Hristo Itchov]

I did several pitstop tests at Spa with nearly 3 min none failed!
Even one when I overshoot the board a lttle, I reversed and then pushed the start button.

I keep 1st gear, no throttle and never move.
IMO its the driver who has to learn how to stop correct.

I see the problem when there are allready several cars waiting, so I had the idea of doing another lap if this situation occurs.

Still, it could happen that you can't stop at your pit stall, for one reason or another, and then such long pitstops are impossible to serve with a normal length pitlane.

[Doni Yourth]

This situation certainly does have legs, doesn't it?  All the suggestions and comments.  It's good! 

I noted above that my online test today with some UK regulars failed.  Let me clarify that with some particulars.

I knew that I could address every element of a handicap employed at the start of the race with one exception.  Otherwise, it would work like a charm.  The test would show me.

I'd have to re-write the pit stall and grid locations(in fact, they'd be identical).  NP.  I've done this dozens of times for the ADC.  The only real doubt was how long after the green flag falls does a user have to enter the race(via the green button).  I expect that you all know all too well that if you don't make the grid before the green flag falls that the button disappears but it does come back after about 15-16 seconds.  You get a late start from your pit stall.  This was the key to my invoking the handicaps.

For a race, nobody would go to the grid.  Everyone just stays back at the menu page and lets the starter flag off an empty grid.  When the green button comes back, users of the car assigned no handicap could punch it, be deposited in their pit stall and off they'd go.  All other users would then wait for their assigned time to click off and then proceed.  Trouble is, GPL limits the amount of time that the green button is available that second time.  It's only two minutes.  For our Spa race, the Chaparral had a handicap of 3m45s.  In the test today, I watched from the viewport on the menu page as Axel, Evil and Alain Maurice motored away at the drop of the green flag.  My green button disappeared at the drop of the flag.  I waited the 15-16 seconds and the green button came back.  I didn't push it wanting to see how long it would stay available.  I was hoping that it was infinite.  No such luck.  It disappeared for a second and fianl time after two minutes.  That kills any chance of using the technique for longish handicaps.

This arrangement would work provided that the handicap didn't exceed two minutes(for the sake of a cushion, say, 118s; fumble the button strike and you ARE a DNS).  It could also be employed in a format that split the event into two heats with each being scored separately or combined on aggregate.

[clouds]

I think the actual system could function if...several things have to be done well to make the system functioning perfectly, one of these if not the major is ...don't have hurry when coming to the pit stall because make a mistake here...means to be out. Having a good practice with this procedure is very important (like everything here in GPL). I would like to leave the refueling free just pressing <SHIFT>+<R> in the pit stall, but it is still unkown if there is something that could make this behaviour possible. (anyway I've used refueling stops at least in 2 races I only remeber we all had to add a file called minrace.lp to the GPL directory to make the refueling without respawn on the race line possible)

[JonnyO]