Quarterly cost: �0
 
nonchalant-unilinear
May 03, 2024, 07:46:02 AM +0100 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Series
S4455GPP
S4455GPW
S4466CA
S4467F1P
S4467F1W
S4467F2A
S4467F2P
S44JSMT
Recent
S4467F1W Mont-Tremblant
S4467F1P Mont-Tremblant
S4467F2P Snetterton (L…
S4467F2A Snetterton (L…
S4455GPP Reims (1954-7…
S4455GPW Reims (1954-7…
S4466CA Michigan
Forthcoming
S4467F1W Aintree
S4467F1P Aintree
S4467F2P Sempione (193…
S4467F2A Sempione (193…
S4455GPP Oakes Field
S4455GPW Oakes Field
S4466CA Salzburgring
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register     LM2 Replays Rules Links Circuits Teams  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 13
  Print  
Author Topic: Mid Season Review (S20)  (Read 18255 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Syd Drake
Former UKGPL Moderators
Full Member
**
Posts: 1075


Nightwalker


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 09:04:56 AM +0000 »

ITEM 1 - General Issues
a) Handicapping
Why not try without handicapping? Say a division mod chooses three or four cars for the race, and you have a free pick of them. Something like this is in use in GTL sections, and it works well.

b) Race nights
I'm only available on tuesdays, so as long we have races on that night (in 66s or 67s) that works for me.

c) Season length
Maybe we should experiment with shorter (or longer) seasons. I mean why 10 races? Why not 7, say very fast tracks, for a special spec season, followed by a 12 race technical tracks season, for example?

d) Team Liveries
Interesting concept, but at present seems too complicated and too time consuming to work.

ITEM 2 - The Divisions

c) Historic Trophy - 66 (Tuesdays)
Definitely stick with pro rules. With them, there are no t1 incidents.

ITEM 6 – Tracks

I'm not in favor of new tracks. At this stage of my GPL involvement, I don't have time to learn new tracks. And it's not fun driving 5 seconds off the pace for a couple of laps until you crash out, which is how it goes at unfamiliar tracks for me. So I generally skip new tracks.
Logged
Hristo Itchov
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3977


There is no limit!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 10:54:21 AM +0000 »

Evil, the problem with tracks for a GT mod division and most people running the same car in a given race can be easily solved if all tracks in the season have similar characteristics.

Generic, complex tracks like Rouen, Mexico and Silverstone would work fine I think. I'm sure we can come up with a list of 10 such tracks. There should be no obvious advantage of any of the cars on such tracks and besides, the mod is rather new and it's not so easy to figure out which car should be used unless you spend a lot of time testing them (and I know I won't, lol).

Very technical tracks like Zandy, Monaco, Nurburgring and so on have to be skipped, as well as borefest tracks with endless straights like Spa, Le Mans or Monza. Anyway, I think you get my idea.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 10:58:47 AM +0000 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

vosblod
Former UKGPL Moderators
Sr. Member
**
Posts: 3488

can divide by zero


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 11:54:04 AM +0000 »

OK here's my personal opinions;

a) Handicapping.
I think the aim should be to try to produce close racing but not completely at the cost of overly handicapping the faster drivers, after all it wouldn't be racing if the best were forced to lose. Specific comments per division below.

b) Race nights
Sundays and Tuesdays suit me, might be able to do some Fridays. My issue is keeping the race starts at 9pm, any earlier and it would interfere with dad's duties.

c) Season length
Like the idea of a long winter and shorter summer season. People may not be able to make so many events during the summer period.

d) Team liveries
Always liked the idea but can see drawbacks re it's a bit of a pain to implement, especially where we can't guarantee everyone will turn up.

e) Driving school
Maybe use of the word 'school' is a bit condescending. Like the idea though, maybe it's worth seeing how many actually want to sign up and decide from there.
I don't support only allowing race entry subject to a track test as it might put people off joining, mind you if a run around was voluntary that would be fine.

f) Moderating team
Not really in a position to comment but the others are a great bunch.

Divisions;

65's - keep them as is, the handicapping systems seem to work pretty well. We do seem to be getting a large group of Coopers in the Novices but I think that reflects the chasm up to Amateurs. If we could get enough drivers to justify three divisions the Coopermen could form the basis of an intermediate group. Not in favor of forced relegation/promotion as it's the drivers decision to make. I'd be in favor of making the Stop and Go compulsory in Novices to save argument and make it more realistic.

Historics - don't drive them much but we seem to have a core group of drivers so must be working well. Handicap system appears to work well although it does negate team chassis.

Graduates - I think the one reset in Privateers is working well. Might be an idea to run different tracks, now found out you can do that without any restructuring of the database setup.
I'm open to suggestions on tokens/handicapping but see my thoughts on Pit Stops, I wouldn't relish having to check them from a moderating point of view.
That said in the three seasons so far to date we have had 5 different leaders which tells me, team preferences aside, the token system seems to be working.
Perhaps it would be an idea to give the less able more starting tokens, at least in Privateers, if ability handicapping is what we want. It could produce issues with allocations to new joiners.

Spec Challenge - Bill has opened a separate thread re possible immediate changes. In the long term I think it has run it's course for now. There's only so many combinations you can try before it becomes repetitive, maybe something to reignite for a fresh challenge in a few seasons time. The alternative would be to move it to Fridays for a more niche market.

If we drop the Specs that leaves a gap on Sundays. I'm keen on trying a GT series but that might be devisive, does everyone like and want to run the GT's or is it like marmite? I think whatever we run on Sundays should appeal to a wide audience and allow everyone to participate. If there isn't a mass audience for GT's we could run something on Fridays to whet peoples appetite. If we don't do GT's on Sundays what else; the 69's have been tried and didn't garner many drivers. I'm quite keen on the idea of two mini-series (eg GT's and something else), keeps it a little more fun and doesn't overload us with serious championships. With only half the races it might give some different drivers a chance to shine.
What I'd ideally like on a Sunday is two mini-series of half the normal races; one a GT challenge and the other a 67 Formula 2 challenge (subject to it being released on time) possibly using the next Novs/Ams track (which one?) to avoid taxing people with too many different tracks in a short period.

As regards GT handicapping it's an interesting one. Logic would say handicap by ability according to each track but I can see Clive's point in that it would be overly complex. I don't have another solution but let's see what you guys come up with.

Friday server - need to decide whether it's just random fun/test races or something a bit more organised. The drawback with something organised is we would need someone who could commit to every Friday to run it.

4/5 - Moderating/Rules
I like the idea of full scrutiny of lap one, doesn't seem like too much extra work. In favor of the 3 proposed rule changes although the Stop and Go issue would be obsolete if they became compulsory.

Lastly I see there are some calls for Pit Stops. I know I always say I don't like them but I've never elucidated. First, and correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like a modders nightmare - check every drivers race and avidly watch with a stopwatch to make sure we all did the right time. I like things professional but that doesn't sound like fun. Second look at the last 67 season we ran them (S17), down to a dirty dozen regulars and most take the slower cars to avoid the cuppa. Third, doesn't someone have to sit there and work out where to stop for each track and put them into a table per race - any volunteers? Fourth, and maybe most importantly, there is an undetectable patch out there that lets you refuel and repair under Pro conditions. I'm not saying we're cheaters (we are not) but if you have to sit in the pits isn't it tempting to run lower fuel and plonk a few gallons in? Plus tidy up any damage while your eating your scones...

I don't want to appear totally anti as I've never run it and don't know the plus sides - what are they? I'm always open to persuasion  Grin
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 11:49:52 PM +0000 by vosblod » Logged
Hristo Itchov
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3977


There is no limit!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 03:39:20 AM +0000 »

Well, if recall correctly the moderator would randomly check a few drivers each race to see if they did their pitstop properly.

Concerning the choice of cars in past D1 seasons, I did drive 1 or 2 races with a faster car just to test if the pitstop times were well choosen, and it worked out just fine, so it's really down to driving. Remember that it's not a handicap system for the drivers, but for the cars, so it's always the faster driver who's going to come on top.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Third, doesn't someone have to sit there and work out where to stop for each track and put them into a table per race - any volunteers?", you just stop in the pitlane next to the wall.

I think Phil can say a lot more on the topic of pitstops and how they worked out, but I do agree with your concern of cheating with the new refuel/repair addon.
Logged

G Jonsson
UKGPL Divisional Moderator
Former UKGPL Moderators
Full Member
**
Posts: 617


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 10:33:28 AM +0000 »

Well, here are my input on the issues below.


a) Handicapping
I am not so keen on handicaps, somehow I think the idea of Handicapping have a negative impact because the fast guys are fast because they have worked on how to become fast. And if the rest of us are not willing to do that but want to be up at the top at the table anyway then we will have a system that sooner or later will have too little difference between the cars, look at the Am`s this season, every race so far has a BT7 on top so how do we handicap the BT7 drivers futher? Make them start form the pits? a lap down? It will become absurd. I think that if we want to win we have to practice, study WR laps and just get faster, until we do we could have a fun event anyway racing with the guys that are on our level.

That said, IF we should stick by using handicaps then maybe pit stops would be the best way to do it. But who is going to decide how long the pit stops should be? The moderator?


b) Race nights
For me it is Tuesdays and Fridays that are possible and because of that I would prefere if we run GT`s on Sundays if at all. I must admit I have not yet taken the GT`s to my hart. The Tuesdays I think is fine the way they are.

c) Season length
I prefere 10 race seasons


ITEM 2 - The Divisions

a) Amateurs - 65 (Tuesdays)
Stick with the chassis allocation system or adopt an alternative handicap?
se above.
Are we happy with the race length at 50 minutes?
Yes
Do we stick with Pro damage?
Yes
Should there be automatic relegation/promotion between Am's and Novices?
No


c) Historic Trophy - 66 (Tuesdays)
Stick with the chassis allocation system or adopt an alternative handicap?
Well, maybe pit stops or non at all, but the current system is quite OK too, but maybe look into the car groups.
Are we happy with the race length at 50 minutes?
Yes
Do we stick with Pro damage?
Yes


Possible changes;

Fridays
We now have the use of T7_2 on Fridays. What should we use it for? Formal or informal events?

I would be happy to run some Fridays event because I am free Fridays and I also have a idea for a kind of mini series, but I think it could also be used for track testing and one time fun events.



ITEM 3 – Servers
The more the better but it seems fine to me.


ITEM 5 – Rule Changes

Are the rules as they stand OK?
Yes


ITEM 6 – Tracks
I really like the Am`s track for this season, and I would like to see more of new and long tracks in the up coming seasons. I also think it would be great if there would be a "good-track-list"  My dream would be that in the GPL Track Database there should be a notice for every track if it is OK for online racing or not.
[/quote]

Göran
Logged
EvilClive
UKGPL Senior Consultant
UKGPL Moderators
Hero Member
****
Posts: 7756

I always play by the rules.... they are MY rules!


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2010, 03:35:22 PM +0000 »

The pitstops are worked out by a clever spreadsheet, which calculates the times for each chassis ( regardless of driver) against the current world record lap. It makes allowance, with a percentage adjustment, for the fact that we are not all aliens and running on empty tanks.

When we used pitstops the race announcement would have a table listing the time ( in seconds) that each chassis had to remain in the pits. The window for pit stops would be given, for a 33 lap race it would be something like , "stops to be taken between 19 laps to go and 15 laps to go". Often there would be a chassis ( in 67's) that would have a "No Stop" handicap or a simple Stop'nGo but that would change from circuit to circuit where a certain cars attributes put it at a disadvantage.

Trust me, a 20 second stop in the pits seems long enough for a 3 course meal and a change of clothes. So just like real life stops, do you take it early and hope to leapfrog other guys when they stop, or do you press on until you build a big enough cushion???  Then remember that you have the "in and "out" laps to factor into the equation.
I have had some real nail biting finishes where the Waza has benefited from a short stop to move into a podium slot, but a pesky Lotus or Eagle is closing after his stop at a rate that will have him right on my gearbox as we start the last lap!!!  The complaint about circulating on your own for the 2nd half of the race is highly unlikely!! as you are going to be trying to preserve the chance of a good finish in the points.

As there seems to be various concerns about the way that pitstops work in practice, it might be a good idea to run a race on a Friday and give everyone a chance to try it  and maybe see the extra dimension it adds to the race.
Logged

Evil Waza, now a completely reformed character!
          **NOW AVAILABLE ON TWITCH @    evilclive67
Rank   Only when I sweat
Podkrecony_Ziutek
Full Member
***
Posts: 336


All glory to the Hypnotoad!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2010, 10:41:37 PM +0000 »

ITEM 1 - General Issues

a) Handicapping

I like the way it's right now.

b) Race nights

I have no big problems with racing on Fridays.

c) Season length

I like 10 races season witch we have right now, but I don't have problems with shorter summer season(but only if all 8 races would count to the championship).

d) Team Liveries

I like the idea of personalised liveries(as long as we wouldn't had pink Ferrari's or The Care Bears Honda's Wink ). Problem is that with GPL using custom liveries is quite problematic. I don't think it's worth to struggling with it.

e) Driving School

I think that this is a good idea. Having someone who will watch you driving is very helpfoul, because this person can find yours little mistakes that you wouldn't noticed alone.

f) Moderating team

Whole team is doing great work, I just miss our Statmeister Wink

ITEM 2 - The Divisions

a) Amateurs - 65

I would stick with the chassis allocation.
Yes.
Yes.
No.

c) Historic Trophy - 66
I wouldn't change anything.

d) Graduates - 67
Tokens works great. It's nice to have one division with no handicap Wink I also hate idea of mandatory pitstops(in simracing and in real life). I do think that it kills the sport, because drivers should pass each others on racing track, not in pit lane.
Yes. For me Pro is the only proper way to race. I do understand why Privateers and Novs. are allowed to Shift R, but other divisions should be on pro rules.
Yes.
Yes
No

Fridays

We could use it for testing racetracks, for Driving School, or for GT division.

i) GT Division

I would love to race in those cars, but only in some kind of endurance format. For me using this mod for sprint races is just a waste of time.
How about doing 3h races with drivers change? I know that GPL don't allow us to make driver changes, but there's a simple way to baypass this Wink

handicapping:

Free chassis choice but have to use each one at least once

or Syd's idea:

a) Handicapping
Why not try without handicapping? Say a division mod chooses three or four cars for the race, and you have a free pick of them. Something like this is in use in GTL sections, and it works well.

ITEM 4 – Moderating and the Appeals Process

If our Mods have no problem witch moderation of lap one, than do it.

ITEM 5 – Rule Changes

I've just remembered, that there's one rule that I would want to see changed:

Quote
Simple Rear End Shunt: Penalty 1 Place
2. The victim had partially lost control before contact and consequently his line was unusual. The shunter was in full control.

For me this should be considered as a racing incident.
Logged

vosblod
Former UKGPL Moderators
Sr. Member
**
Posts: 3488

can divide by zero


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 09:52:34 PM +0000 »

Interleague idea to throw into the pot -

When we tried it the Interleague was great, both for the fun and bringing the GPL community together. In my opinion there were two drawbacks; inevitably selecting only nine drivers per team meant it became slightly elite with only our fastest guys involved, secondly - and this is what killed it - it turned out to be an administration nightmare organising the schedule.

I've had a think as to whether there is any way of reviving some sort of Interleague rivalry but without the two drawbacks;
We throw out a fully scheduled monthly challenge (? Sundays or Fridays) to all known leagues to battle it out for a Championship League table during one of our Seasons. We invite all leagues to attend each event (might need two or even three servers if we get a big attendence), run Pro and score on the basis of the top AND bottom finishers (plus maybe fastest Qually and most on-track laps over a threshold) from each League being the ONLY ones to score points. Any non-league joiners could race but would not get scored.

Why?
1) Any given league might only be able to get one or two (or ten) drivers to attend so it takes out any numbers weighting
2) Scoring the last League driver encourages the less 'able' (like me) to join
3) Anyone mid-table still has an encouragement as, on PRO with no modding, you never know who might go out (at the front or the back)
4) Anyone mid-table can help a 'team mate', in a gentlemanly manner, so your racing would still count
5) There's very little admin - if you can't field at least two drivers you won't get maximum points
6) Worst case scenario, if it doesn't take off, we can adapt it into a UKGPL Division
7) With only the requirement (not even that) to field two drivers we can run whatever mod we like per event including GT's

There would be a lot more issues to iron out before we did it but just an idea. If it worked we might get overloaded with entrants so would need to sort out server issues. If there was more then one server I'd count the scoring the same and add all server scores together - and yes there are issues with that re leftover servers weighted with five drivers from one league (it's all in the detail). We'd also need a way of knowing who was driving for which League.


OK now tell me I've had too many Christmas sherries... Wink
Logged
BadBlood
Former UKGPL Moderators
Hero Member
**
Posts: 6107


Sassafrassarassum Rick Rastardly!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2010, 11:40:25 PM +0000 »

Sounds great actually - devil is in the Mince Pies (or something)

The interleague races I have done (which have been friendlies) have been great fun.
Logged

BadBlood

aka

Angel Moose angel
GPLRank +71.5ish Smiley
GPL65Rank +71.1ish Smiley
Other ranks? Middlin' Slowish Wink
Podkrecony_Ziutek
Full Member
***
Posts: 336


All glory to the Hypnotoad!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2010, 01:18:31 PM +0000 »

How about changing Interleague into something like GPL World Cup, but for leagues? I know that it would be more diffcould to organise than UKGPL vs. rest of the world, but maybe other leagues would help to organise it(I'm talking mostly about providing servers and helping with race moderation).
Logged

Hristo Itchov
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3977


There is no limit!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2010, 01:48:11 PM +0000 »

I think it would be best if all league admins come together and organize a championship with multiple divisions according to driving skill so all drivers from all leagues can participate. Something like the Masters of GPL of the past.
Logged

Hristo Itchov
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3977


There is no limit!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2010, 11:49:58 AM +0000 »

OK, following Tim's request to take the discussion here - I think the bad rejoin penalties need to be modified and/or expanded to cover more situations and outcomes.

The 2 places penalty for a blatant bad rejoin is applied regardless of whether the driver who was made contact with went off, spun, retired or continued unaffected. It also doesn't take into account whether the driver who made the bad rejoin gained any advantage by doing that, such as gaining a position and/or finishing higher than he would've otherwise.

In light of that, the 2 places penalty is unfair when applied to a driver who was faster anyway, who was ahead anyway, and who was going to finish ahead of the other driver anyway, and especially when the driver behind wasn't actually robbed of his position and result. In addition, a 2 places lost penalty means a 3rd driver is dragged into the outcome, without any logic behind it and benefitting from something he/she was never involved in.

I think the rules need to be so harsh only when someone actually gains an advantage of their bad driving/mistake, or when they rob someone else from a better position they would've had otherwise. If this is not the case, then I don't see a need to decide the outcome of a race outside the track after the race has finished. If penalty needs to be applied, it seems much more appropriate to apply a time penalty that covers the time lost by the victim in the incident, give a warning to the driver in fault (i.e. yellow card) or penalize them for the next race with starting from the back or a mandatory stop/go in the opening laps.

Direct robbing of places and/or points should only be left for the most sever cases, where fault was due to intentional bad driving or when it's decisive for a race/championship outcome regarding the two (or more) drivers involved in the situation.
Logged

Podkrecony_Ziutek
Full Member
***
Posts: 336


All glory to the Hypnotoad!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2010, 05:06:49 PM +0000 »

In light of that, the 2 places penalty is unfair when applied to a driver who was faster anyway, who was ahead anyway, and who was going to finish ahead of the other driver anyway, and especially when the driver behind wasn't actually robbed of his position and result. In addition, a 2 places lost penalty means a 3rd driver is dragged into the outcome, without any logic behind it and benefitting from something he/she was never involved in.

If this driver is fasther, then he should have no problems with getting back his position in safe way. So he can take it easy and try to have proper rejoin Wink Everytime this driver makes a bad rejoin, he is unfair to others and he deserves to get proper penalty.
Logged

vosblod
Former UKGPL Moderators
Sr. Member
**
Posts: 3488

can divide by zero


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2010, 07:44:53 PM +0000 »

If I'm reading this right there are basically two issues you are raising;

1) A penalty should be based on how it affected any injured parties (eg went off/spun/retired/continued unaffected) and whether the transgressor gained any advantage
2) Penalty places should not give an advantage to drivers further back not involved in a specific incident

I am assuming you would wish this to apply to all types of incidents (eg rear ends / side by side / ambitious overtake etc) as I can't see the logic in taking rejoins in isolation. Will be interested to hear what others think about this.

1)
My take is if you cause an incident you take the penalty, why should it be decided in hindsight as to how much disruption was caused to others or advantage to you. Where's the help (as that is what penalties are really for) if the penalty is reduced because you were lucky enough not to cause more disruption? The act was still the same. How on earth can anyone predict, not guess, who would HAVE finished where in any given race with or without an incident?
In my mind you either break a rule or you don't, you can't partly Appallingly Bad Rejoin or slightly Ambitiously Overtake. Yes each incident is different and the rules can't cover everything and sometimes there may be extenuating circumstances but in general you know what you will get as the rules are there for all to see.
Does anyone intentionally badly drive? Doing that is as liable to harm you as your competitors.

2)
It's not about giving an advantage to others it's about penalising the transgressor and goes back to the issue of reducing penalties according to disruption caused. I just don't see the thought process, if someone is penalised of course it MAY advantage those not involved but that's the risk of doing something untoward.

If the majority wanted to go down this route we would have to effectively re-write the whole rule book. It would change the concept by basing penalties on the outcome of a transgression rather then just the infringement itself, introducing an element of luck.

PS: Happy new year everyone Grin
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 08:00:42 PM +0000 by vosblod » Logged
john roberts
Former UKGPL Moderators
Full Member
**
Posts: 908



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2010, 08:32:40 PM +0000 »

could i possibly ask that Hristo takes a 2nd look at the replay as he appears to be confusing the said incident with another one .

the server replay can be found here

http://www.jamesonline.net/ukgpl/2010.12.19_Grads_Sebring/sebring_191210_WORKS.7z

and a picture to show the racing lines taken

http://clarkhillracing.freeforums.org/download/file.php?id=178&sid=574a8a14524f92b22369392c949d3e75

if i remember rightly it happens on lap 6 when i was infront of the car that left the track .

john
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 13
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Hosted by DaveGymer.com
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.348 seconds with 31 queries.