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Author Topic: needing help with Zandvoort 65  (Read 6306 times)
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blito
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« on: October 27, 2010, 03:36:54 PM +0100 »

Hi guys,
I`ve already started to practise for the next round of the novices league but i am having a great deal of difficulty with this one. I cant seem to find any sort of consistent speed on this track at all.. i need to get my PB down to under 1:32 to be where i feel i need to be, but if i drive within my limits i am 2 seconds off that speed and if I push to the limit the car will end up a smoking heap somewhere... i cant seem to feel where i`m going wrong.
Am willing to try new things with the setup but mostly what i`m looking for here is a little bit of mentoring.
Please help as i`m already starting to loose the will to live Cheesy
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 04:12:25 PM +0100 »

try joining us at Breats tonight and maybe we can give you some pointers  Grin
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Hristo Itchov
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 04:45:26 PM +0100 »

Hi guys,
I`ve already started to practise for the next round of the novices league but i am having a great deal of difficulty with this one. I cant seem to find any sort of consistent speed on this track at all.. i need to get my PB down to under 1:32 to be where i feel i need to be, but if i drive within my limits i am 2 seconds off that speed and if I push to the limit the car will end up a smoking heap somewhere... i cant seem to feel where i`m going wrong.
Am willing to try new things with the setup but mostly what i`m looking for here is a little bit of mentoring.
Please help as i`m already starting to loose the will to live Cheesy


Zandy is probably the ultimate track in terms of drifting and early acceleration benefit - the earlier you set up the car towards the apex and apply the throttle (gradually) before you even reach the apex, the higher your speed through the following section.

The tricky bit is how to deal with the consecutive corners - normally you would be using the whole road width, but whenever you have 2 corners following each other, you need to keep on the inside (or at least the middle) line on the exit of the first bend, so you can get a proper line into the following corner and carry more speed, and accelerate earlier out of it.

When it's 3 bends as in the last section (right-left-right), you need to sacrifice the exit of the first two corners and set the car properly for the final one.

So avoid late and deep breaking. Focus on early acceleration with your frontend pointing towards the apex. Carry as much speed as possible - no abrupt deceleration/acceleration, let it drift around. Use the steering wheel to only point the car in the right direction, then control it with the throttle and brake.

And finally - watch a replay of a good lap, it's worth more than anything I can say.

About setup, I set a lot of oversteer for this one, because the camber in the corners keep the car from spinning off. At least for 65s. The only downside is that direction changes become a bit tricky.

try joining us at Breats tonight and maybe we can give you some pointers  Grin

Shameless marketing plug, Evil.  Grin
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:48:44 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2010, 05:28:57 PM +0100 »

try joining us at Breats tonight and maybe we can give you some pointers  Grin
Shameless marketing plug, Evil.  Grin

Would have been even better if he'd spelt BREASTS correctly!!  Tongue
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EvilClive
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2010, 06:31:03 PM +0100 »

try joining us at Breats tonight and maybe we can give you some pointers  Grin
Shameless marketing plug, Evil.  Grin

Would have been even better if he'd spelt BREASTS correctly!!  Tongue

and the joke is.. that I corrected the spelling from my initial attaempt!!!!

can fingers get dyslexia?HuhHuh
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2010, 07:25:46 PM +0100 »

and the joke is.. that I corrected the spelling from my initial attaempt!!!!

can fingers get dyslexia?HuhHuh

Yse
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2010, 09:24:12 AM +0100 »

Getting back to the original question re Zandvoort lap times. 
Hristo is quite right ( very annoying coz he usually is!!) it is the exit speed of some of the critical corners that is important   and   you should be able ( in a 65 car) to keep it flat out from the long right hand loop all the way to the corner leading onto the straight.

So a lap of Zandy ( for me in the Cooper ) should be something like..

Controlled braking into Tarzan so that the car settles neatly into the apex and allows you to apply early smooth throttle on the exit in 2nd gear.
up to 3rd
I take a late apex on the next left flick, keeping to the left, down to 2nd, to give me a faster line through the right hander leading to the hairpin. down to 1st on entry

The exit from this hairpin is one of the "critical" points, (so a good controlled entry is essential) and only practice will tell you how hard and how soon you can apply the gas. The best I can say is "feel the grip Luke , feel the grip" . short shift into 2nd to avoid wheelspin

Then it is full bore in all gears up and over the crest 3rd- 4th possibly 5th and, if you get it right, all the way to the entry to the long right hand loop. Another critical corner. A smooth entry is essential down to 3rd and I hug the kerb, but avoid hitting the kerbs because that will lose you speed, looking for the exit to open up so that I can get the power on as early as possible.
From there, it is max acceleration up the slope 4th through the apex of the slight left hander, allowing the car to drift well to the right to take a late apex to the first proper left hand bend up to 5th. I find that if the setup is right, the transition from the left hander to the right hander is a natural "bounce" and the car settles easily into the second apex without lifting off. But, if in any doubt it is better to take a fractional lift to ensure a tight line and avoid putting a wheel on the sand at the exit!!!
Keeping the gas valve wide open we approach the right hand sweep at the bridge. If you get this right, there is no lift, just an early turn in 5th for the Coop allowing the car to 4 wheel drift past the apex, probably snatching top gear if you are going fast enough, but certainly on the red line.
 The next right hander I lift slightly still in 5th just to get the nose to tuck in and again 4 wheel drift through the apex on full gas, aware of the sand on the outside and prepared to ease a little if there is any danger of putting a wheel in the sand. I continue the arc of the corner to get the car across to the right hand side and then drop a gear to 4th to accelerate through the left hander before braking to get the car settled for the entry into the final corner.down to 3rd as i crest the small rise.

This entry is another critical one. If the car settles quickly and smoothly into this corner you can be heavily on the power ( in 3rd to minimise wheelspin and if the ratio is right it will pull cleanly), very early and exit onto the straight at maximum bananas, carrying those extra few mph/kph all the way to Tarzan!! 
Simples!! a 1:28 lap in a Cooper Grin

It is worth mentioning that with the 65's a slight lift is often preferable to brake application and should transfer enough weight onto the front wheels to get a little entry oversteer and tuck the nose in, whereas a good application of throttle can make the car "push" wide if you are in danger of being too close ( or hitting) to the kerb at the apex.
I find Zandvoort to be a circuit where once you have the "rhythm" the lap is very relaxed and just sort of flows. The only real overtaking place is the entry to Tarzan, but that is fraught with danger of outbraking oneself and needs spot on accuracy to execute it right.....but it feels so sweet when you manage it  Grin.
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2010, 01:15:23 PM +0100 »

Very good track guide line wise, Evil, but I find your choice of gearing rather weird.  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2010, 04:26:22 PM +0100 »

Very good track guide line wise, Evil, but I find your choice of gearing rather weird.  Grin

as always it depends on what ratios people are using, but the intention was to give blito a "sort of" guide to how he might approach Zandy
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blito
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2010, 06:04:28 PM +0100 »

interesting reading there thanks...
I feel that i`m getting the lines right but the problem i`m facing is one of understeer - i`m having to lift at each and every one of those "flat out" sweepers or the car will just wash wide. Would reducing the front roll-bar strength help there? its at about 60lb at the moment.  Gearing wise i`m using the Fez with its classic 5-speed box and i`m just about able to get 5th at the sweeper before the bridge..
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Jason Blito
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2010, 06:35:35 PM +0100 »

Understeer is definitely not wanted at Zandy, especially in 65s. I run bit softer front ARB.

Instead of suggesting setup numbers I offer you my setups. Zandy being one of my favorites I have developed some very balanced setups for it. You can borrow some ideas if nothing else. The setup pack is on our Hiki Waza blog, link in my signature.

P.S. If it's a car I don't have a setup for, you can look into one of the other cars - 65 setups work fine without the need for many changes from car to car.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 06:37:22 PM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2010, 07:24:19 PM +0100 »

You can find info here on making a setup work for other cars.

http://www.jamesonline.net/gpl/setups_65.htm

I have a couple of 65 setups there for Zandvoort too but bear in mind I made some of them a couple of years ago.

Take the Lotus one, rename it as per the instructions there and change the diff to 45/30 and give that a whirl, it should turn on the throttle and dial out your understeer.
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2010, 02:40:48 AM +0100 »

You can find info here on making a setup work for other cars.

http://www.jamesonline.net/gpl/setups_65.htm

I have a couple of 65 setups there for Zandvoort too but bear in mind I made some of them a couple of years ago.

Take the Lotus one, rename it as per the instructions there and change the diff to 45/30 and give that a whirl, it should turn on the throttle and dial out your understeer.

45/30 and you say it won't understeer? Eeek!

Understeer can happen for different reasons, so one cannot simply say understeer and be done with it. Is it understeering on entry, mid-corner or exit? Does it lead to snap-oversteer? Is it because you're making a mistake or it's really the car setup? Could it be your line that forces you into an understeer?

You have to become aware of all that or you'll keep going in circles with finding the cure. One of the most common problems which gets me often despite all the experience is mistaking understeer with oversteer. E.g. you exhibit understeer on corner entry and/or in the middle of a corner, you try to combat it by turning the steering wheel more and applying more throttle, and snap - it oversteers. Then you try cure the oversteer when it's really understeer which is the problem.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 02:50:06 AM +0100 by Hristo Itchov » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2010, 08:48:53 AM +0100 »

Just to add confusion..

if you brake balance is too high ( maybe 58-60% ) and you are putting a greater load on the front wheels then the car will be reluctant to turn in until you get off of the brake pedal, especially if the front wheels are close to ( or beyond) the lock up point.

Are you right foot braking or left foot braking Paul?  if you can train your feet to left foot brake, then you can keep about 10% throttle on as you approach the apex ( this will stop the wheels locking and, strange as it seems, shorten the braking distance.

But it does require a deft balance of the pedal pressures.

Another thing worth mentioning is the point at which you lift smoothly OFF the brake pedal, allowing the cars suspension to recover and do its job through the apex of the corner. This is something that you can only learn through "feel", but it can be quite a shock and unnerving to get off the brakes when you think you still need to lose some speed, and find the car goes through the apex like it is on rails, faster than you have ever managed before!!!
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2010, 09:17:03 AM +0100 »

or both!!!   Undecided...  

 "best to just throw it sideways, then oversteer and understeer cease to matter"  

Waza training manual. Chapter 6  ...How to wear white headband over eyes and survive...
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