UKGPL Season 16 (2008) Division 1 '67 - Brands Hatch (GP) - Jan 4

[Hristo Itchov]

You are the Fernando Alonso of CC, Bernie! 

[bernie]

You are the Fernando Alonso of CC, Bernie! 

ROFLMAO 

[EvilClive]

Bernie said.....

"I say again ,there is nothing wrong with the CC , as far as I know all those who race in this div thourely enjoy the racing , nothing to stop anyone moving up to D1 except maybe compared to Clubmens D1 has nothing much to offer them.  atm at least."

I think Bernie has hit the nail very squarely on the head here and highlited what is apparent as regards Div1!!!

The entertainment value that is available in CC far outweighs the "glory" ( or whatever you want to call it?) of racing in Div 1. Whether that is as a result of closer competition between more drivers or whatever is up for discussion, but what he says is true. I think if we look back there might be a few names that slowly dimmed and vanished after gaining promotion to Div 1? after being involved in CC for several seasons.

I think we all enjoy racing, and lets be honest ...we ALL enjoy winning at least occasionally . Promotion to Div1 is a major performance shock and I for one found it quite daunting at first, in fact I still do!!

If I am in a race, I want to be competitive, that is to say I want to be trying 100% to win and just running around trying to preserve the car at 90% pace hoping guys in front break down or leave the circuit to pick up places just does not count for me. By the same token I do not want to find it easy and a stroll in the park, maybe that is why I still find myself enjoying the slower chassis and the challenge of hustling it around against "faster" opposition.

I want to actually race Hristo and Lorenzo one day...it may be well into the future...but ONE day...I have a dream........

[Alonso]

Hola!

I'm backing my amigo Bernie on this one too   

[Clive Loynes]

Hola!

I'm backing my amigo Bernie on this one too   

Are you Bernie's cat?

[Jack O'Ferrall]

Burt hasn't yet won the Clubman's Bernie- he pines for it every race.  If completely ignoring your team-mate and fellow Clubmans driver is the type of singleminded ruthlessness it takes to be Default Champion, well I'm happy not to have developed the skill.

Ben won the season 14 championship but as Division 2 wasn't going to be run, there wasn't the opportunity for the champion to be promoted to D2 the following season.

The 67s are the carset that it makes most sense to run a chassis allocation division for, as we have far more information about both cars and drivers.  With allocation we could avoid the Clubmans problem, where fast drivers who have missed a few races can take fast cars without penalty.  We could also handicap our faster drivers more effectively, and without pit stops.

Division 1 has a long history in UKGPL, but altering the format might be preferable to having the championship debased?  If we just drop Division 1, Clubmans will be the top 67 division though...

[Phil Thornton]

I think we need to draw a line under this one now.  It is true that in previous seasons when there were far more drivers than we have now, the divisional champions always moved up.  This was in the days when the Chief Moderator allocated drivers to divisions based on their ability.  We are in a different situation now. There are nothing like as many drivers but there are far more options in terms of add-on tracks, car set mods and handicapping rules.  Consequently the allocation to divisions now is primarily down to driver choice based on personal preferences.  That is why I changed the registration process for the last couple of years, announcing the rules, dates and track lists BEFORE drivers registered, not after the divisions had been allocated by the Chief Mod.

The moderating team need to reserve the right to adjust the divisions if there is an obvious "round peg in a square hole".  This is covered in the introduction to season 16 here.  It specifically states that the main contenders for Division 1 will not be allowed to enter the Clubmans Cup.  Much as I respect Bernie as a competitor (that I frequently enjoy battling with) I do not consider him a main contender for the Division 1 title.

There is clearly a massive step up in performance between the Clubman's Cup and Division 1 now that Division 2 (the natural progression for the Clubmans Champion) is defunct. We clearly have a choice to make for Season 17.  Do we want to reduce the variety of car sets we use and enforce ability streamed divisions in one particular car set (i.e. effectively re-create Division 2).  Or do we stick with a diverse range of races and formats which allow people to double up and race on more than one division?  The reason we went this way was based solely on falling numbers.  Allowing drivers to double-up was the only way to ensure reasonably full grids.  One thing is for certain, UKGPL doesn't have the drivers, moderators or servers to run more than 4 or 5 divisions in any one season.

I fully understand Jack's motives in trying to promote close racing with ability based divisions and appropriate chassis allocation but I am concerned that we simply don't have the numbers of drivers to support this approach.  If Jack is as successful in promoting the 67s next season as he has been in promoting the 65s this season,  I may be proved wrong.  Hopefully I will be and there will be a natural progression for the Clubmans Champion that we can all subscribe to.

[Hristo Itchov]

Hola!

I'm backing my amigo Bernie on this one too   

LOL! 

Regarding the discussion, I really wish we could all race together, closely. It was working to some extent in the Masters Cup because of the chassis handicap, which I quite liked btw. Perhaps that system could be extended to handle some issues like faster drivers missing a few races to get a faster chassis. Maybe a forbidden chassis based on rank, i.e. I shouldn't be allowed to race Lotus and Eagle (and maybe Ferrari) under any circumstances. I wish GPL had a better way for providing data from the client side, so one could enforce fuel handicaps and stuff safely and in a controlled manner without relying simply on faith in fairplay.
I remember enjoying many great close battles in past Masters Cup races with slower and faster (relatively) drivers and also many more in the BREASTS league when it was running 67s.
I admire Dave's efforts to promote us and to gather more drivers, it seems to be working really well for the other divisions and it's a shame about 67, because there actually exist hundreds of active drivers but most are focused on a single league or their local country championships. We've discussed it before and I really don't know why anyone with passion for 67 racing wouldn't like to join us. It's as if they're doubting the league is that good, so I wish we could somehow prove them wrong. I try to speak about UKGPL's pros whenever possible in chats, but I guess that approach isn't so effective.
I hope we keep a 67 division for the future as nothing compares to the feeling of the original cars and the racing they produce. Of course I enjoy 66s and especially 65s quite a lot as well.

-=Hristo=-

[bernie]

Burt hasn't yet won the Clubman's Bernie- he pines for it every race.   who have missed a few races can take fast cars without penalty.  We could also handicap our faster drivers more effectively, and without pit stops.

I do Appologise then, perhaps I dreamed it  , I was sure Burt had won the CC or something, season 14 ?   perhaps it was the Div 2 champion and  if that is so then surely  by your reckoning he ought not to be racing in the Clubmans Cup atm as he should have moved up to D1.

See here ....

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=322823

If completely ignoring your team-mate and fellow Clubmans driver is the type of singleminded ruthlessness it takes to be Default Champion, well I'm happy not to have developed the skill.

As for these comment regards me and Burt I'm afraid you have me there , as I dont recall ever "completley ignoring " the lad and as for your other remarks I shall do my best to take Phil's advice and ignore them, though I find it difficult .You are entitled to your opinion of me , but not sure how you have arrived at such a conclusion .

 

[Jack O'Ferrall]

Bernie, Bernie.  If you choose to interpret my impish suggestion- that in order to become champion you had to set aside the fervent desires of your team mate- as a slur on your character, then it must be true.  You are Fernando Alonso...

However, though I might wish Clubman's was running well, the division has no moderator, or server, since it lost both during the course of the season- and many of the old familiar drivers race infrequently, if at all.  Phil has stepped in, but when I have to move up to the Interleague race to make up numbers, losing my Clubman's drive, that means that we don't have a moderator to start the server.  Which led to the problems last race, when though Mike was good enough to help out, we had no moderator to introduce new drivers.  I believe that you yourself mentioned that it didn't go smoothly?  Also, Mike can't start Brands for us next round. 

However hard the moderating team work, we only have one dedicated server remaining to us.  Despite Phil's best effort's, it only runs 67s.  To run only two 67 divisions- Clubmans and Interleague, and then to run them at the same time, leaving the alternate Sunday empty or to mod racing, seems absurd.  When we started running the mods we had a dedicated server.  Phil, Mike, Tim and Clive- who makes the 65s possible- do their level best, but domestic connections aren't as good.  It might even be as well that we only have half-grids, because when we run a full grid on a domestic server there are problems.

[bernie]

Hola!

I'm backing my amigo Bernie on this one too   

LOL! 

Regarding the discussion, I really wish we could all race together, closely. It was working to some extent in the Masters Cup because of the chassis handicap, which I quite liked btw. Perhaps that system could be extended to handle some issues like faster drivers missing a few races to get a faster chassis. Maybe a forbidden chassis based on rank, i.e. I shouldn't be allowed to race Lotus and Eagle (and maybe Ferrari) under any circumstances. I wish GPL had a better way for providing data from the client side, so one could enforce fuel handicaps and stuff safely and in a controlled manner without relying simply on faith in fairplay.
I remember enjoying many great close battles in past Masters Cup races with slower and faster (relatively) drivers and also many more in the BREASTS league when it was running 67s.
I admire Dave's efforts to promote us and to gather more drivers, it seems to be working really well for the other divisions and it's a shame about 67, because there actually exist hundreds of active drivers but most are focused on a single league or their local country championships. We've discussed it before and I really don't know why anyone with passion for 67 racing wouldn't like to join us. It's as if they're doubting the league is that good, so I wish we could somehow prove them wrong. I try to speak about UKGPL's pros whenever possible in chats, but I guess that approach isn't so effective.
I hope we keep a 67 division for the future as nothing compares to the feeling of the original cars and the racing they produce. Of course I enjoy 66s and especially 65s quite a lot as well.

-=Hristo=-

Hristo , I'll raise my glass and drink to that , but whatever the outcome, ANY change to the divisions which has to take place must reflect the majority needs of the league members, of coarse we all know how its impossible to please everyone and some of us will dissapointed by having to adopt a "new" formula .
I can recall how myself and others thought that when Div2 was dropped we had taken a step backwards,  but most of us race now without giving too much thought to past seasons and try to look forward . The fact remains that I feel very comfortable in "my" ukgpl league as it stands whatever title you give it . but what will be, will be. I dont run this league or make the descisions , all I ever did was give my opinion , good or bad about the present situation as I saw it , and my own reasons for wanting it to stay so,  yet every time I made a comment , certain people were convinced that my only motive was selfish and I assume that because they think I can somehow "hog" the title again ( which is utter rubbish as the current results of s16 show ) I am prepared to sell my mother to keep the status quo .
The truth is I won a championship (albiet at the lowest level ) and It felt great at the time. I am not unique , I have done nothing that others haven't done before me.  I would love to move upwards to a higher div but the step between CC and Div1 is way to big for this old man and there simply is no alternative atm .

Just in case anyone is remotely interested,  the true CC standings (my calculation after Kyalami round ) show RIK = 158 : Burt = 152 : Wil = 141 : me on 132 plus Steve and others knocking on the door . pretty close stuff with 3 rounds to go , I look forward to being diposed by the young guns
As I am utter crap at the upcoming Brands and Zandy there is a good chance I will be out of the reconing come Monza .

But what the hell,  life is full of  "if only's"   "maybe's" and  "should have's"  so "maybe" tomorrow I wake up to find I really am a short arsed spaniard with a talent for driving along with a greater talent for staring the shit 

         

[vosblod]

  Phil, Mike, Tim and Clive- who makes the 65s possible- do their level best, but domestic connections aren't as good. 

Dave, I assumed you had servers coming out of your ears and mine was just an add on...
If it's that bad I'll up the connection to 20 meg (apparently 50 meg is soon to be released in my area) and sort the remote hosting.
Let me know if you really need my server, thought it was just an extra

[Hristo Itchov]

But what the hell,  life is full of  "if only's"   "maybe's" and  "should have's"  so "maybe" tomorrow I wake up to find I really am a short arsed spaniard with a talent for driving along with a greater talent for staring the shit         

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the ratio of talent there, it goes the other way around IMO. BTW when I said you were the Alonso of CC it wasn't related with the Alonso-Hamilton feud affair, so don't take it the wrong way. 
OK, back to topic... which is... race reports supposedly?