UKGPL Season 44 (Spring 2024) 1967 F2 (Amateurs) - Suzuka - Mar 12

[Rainier]

I've looked at the replays of the guys who beat me tonight. Of them only Dave and Roger, as did I, kept two wheels on the track on every lap at the three sections denominated as track limits. David cut the course six times, Matt managed to stay within the limits on three laps, and Eric cut the course on every lap except one. If I am not mistaken, cutting the course at the chicane gives a driver an advantage of one or two seconds per lap.

Cutting the course with 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 wheels ?
2 seconds a lap with only 2 wheels is a bit exaggerated.   

In my case, I tried to follow the black line on the track ...except one or two times when I lost the control ...and then I lost 1 or 2 seconds !   

[roguk]

Hi qualified 2nd then got discoed 5 minutes before race by a miracle managed to reconnect, and had some great racing with you guys.
Grats to Dave Curtis on win

[CubbieRoo]

I've looked at the replays of the guys who beat me tonight. Of them only Dave and Roger, as did I, kept two wheels on the track on every lap at the three sections denominated as track limits. David cut the course six times, Matt managed to stay within the limits on three laps, and Eric cut the course on every lap except one. If I am not mistaken, cutting the course at the chicane gives a driver an advantage of one or two seconds per lap. If we were abiding by the guidelines established by the track designer, there would have been penalties exacted for course cutting ---  stop and waits amounting to 20 seconds or so per lap per infraction --- but here the administrators, in their infinite wisdom, decided against that. The view, as best as I can understand it, is that we don't really know where the track limits are. We need bales or posts or something to tell us. That argument has not comforted me much, to be honest. I figured how to get around those corners somehow without such help.

I've never filed a protest in this or any other online racing league. This is a hobby for me, something to while away my otherwise empty hours. I'm just disappointed that I spend a lot of time trying to do things right when it turns out that doing things right really doesn't matter.

If that's the case there needs to be some kind of ruling/penalty otherwise it'll just encourage the same next time?   Maybe any 'chicane cutters' could (in a sportsmanlike fashion) raise their hands & request a time penalty (per infringement) & apply that to the total race time. 

[phspok]

I haven't studied the replay in detail. I have run at Suzuka with a couple of variations for that chicane (there are at least 2) with what I consider to be a "natural" line. I have never had any cuts and penalties with in game track boundaries for wheels off there in any sim.
I was following Dave at times who I thought was taking a very late entry, I guess to avoid cuts. If Pepe is correct, then I should lose 2 secs per cut, which would mean I should add 48 secs to my race time   So that will make this event one to drop

I can live with that.

I will do some testing being absolutely certain to not cut, and see what times I can get. Suspect I will not be 2 secs slower, maybe I will
but I am curious.

[dave curtis]

<SNIP>
I was following Dave at times who I thought was taking a very late entry, I guess to avoid cuts.
<SNIP>

Yes, I was determined to do what I could to ensure I was not indicated as offtrack.
(On a previous event here, I was astonished to find out I had only 1-2 "clean" laps. Although as I've already mentioned, there are other places to go wide/out all around the circuit!).

I definitely lost out when being the car ahead,  as well as when I was behind with a tow!  But, I also seemed to have a particular problem pulling away out of the hairpin / just bogging down - so I was just plain slower at various places of the track, not just the chicane. I doubt I could have improved by 1-2 seconds a lap, consistently.


The on/off track indication seems clear within GPL/reporting,  but the real-life margins range from potentially very fine to a blatant short-cut/cheating.  I ran practice laps where I'm sure I had at least 2 wheels on track/within the white lines,  but marked out.


I had a very quick look at the Pro event. I didn't examine the actual replay, but Doni seems to be top of the percentages there


The event was still quite the workout.  I got lucky.

[Pepe Higdon]

2 seconds a lap with only 2 wheels is a bit exaggerated.   

The advantage to the course-cutting driver of 1-2 seconds/lap is not my calculation. Cookie made that claim in a post at the bottom of the first page of this thread: "IMO the key point here is the chicane where you can hardly see the limits, but if you cut it you make easy an 1-2 sec advantage [Roll Eyes]." I merely deferred to his opinion because he's forgotten more about this sim than I'll ever know.

Anyway, does it matter if the advantage --- and there clearly is some advantage to the course-cutter --- is but one-millionth of a second/lap? The designer of this track put a trigger in the track file that would have had you visiting the pit six times and waiting for your pit board to release you. Those stop and go penalties would have added at least 20 seconds to each lap that you pitted. But wiser heads than mine concluded that was a rule we could forget in this race because shut up. I didn't much care for this decision, since I thought it would bring us right to the point where we are today, but I dutifully shut up.

OK, we were told that "repeat offenders will be prosecuted." Now, David, have you been a good boy or are you a repeat offender with six offs in 19 laps? I don't know. We have a pretty clear rule --- two wheels on the track through the three track limit spots --- but not a very clear idea of what it might take to be considered a violator of the rule. I guess we'll find out soon enough, huh? 

[Rainier]

GPL replay analyzer wrote :

Driver: Pepe HigdonF2 - Eagle   

Practice laps
Lap 1: 2m30.136s [Off the track]
Lap 2: 2m23.558s
Lap 3: 2m21.168s
Lap 4: 2m21.706s [Off the track]
Lap 5: 2m19.538s
Lap 6: 9m57.435s [Off the track, Invalid lap]
Lap 7: 3m15.736s [Off the track]
Lap 8: 6m07.583s [Off the track, Invalid lap]
Lap 9: 2m21.312s
Lap 10: 2m25.906s [Off the track]
Lap 11: 2m26.230s [Off the track]
Lap 12: 2m24.111s [Off the track, Invalid lap]

Race laps
Lap 0: 49.202s
Lap 1: 2m30.121s
Lap 2: 2m23.132s
Lap 3: 2m25.029s [Off the track]
Lap 4: 2m22.750s [Off the track]
Lap 5: 2m20.630s [Off the track]
Lap 6: 2m20.987s
Lap 7: 2m21.770s
Lap 8: 2m22.144s
Lap 9: 2m21.724s
Lap 10: 2m22.805s
Lap 11: 2m26.869s [Off the track]
Lap 12: 2m20.838s
Lap 13: 2m20.783s
Lap 14: 2m20.641s
Lap 15: 2m22.355s
Lap 16: 2m21.323s
Lap 17: 2m20.466s
Lap 18: 2m21.709s
Lap 19: 2m23.955s

It seems GPL replay analyzer made a difference between [Off the track] and [Off the track, Invalid lap]


In my case, I checked all my laps :
I clearly cut the chicane with 4 wheels out on lap 5, it was just after making a mistake and spun. The result was my worst lap : 2min29sec715

For all the other laps, I cut the chicane with a maximum of 2 wheels ...even if the other two wheels were very close to the white line on laps 10,12 and 13 but never entirely out of this limit.

By the way, if the moderator decides to penalize all the drivers except you and give you the victory, I will be OK and happy for you.

[il_lupo_mannaro]

As I finished on last position with the slowest PB of the race I'll not enter the discussion about cutting the chicane but I'll probably did it when I set my PB in the qualify.
I'm really not able to explain why my PB in race was nearly 2" slower than the one in qualify.
Anyway, at the beginning of the race, after a good start, I was hit by a white car and I spun. Then I had to wait for all the drivers to rejoin the track on last position.
I had some fun when I was chased for some laps by Francesco that I passed after he spun too.
Nothing more to say: maybe I should try another and quicker car for next race.
Cheers from Monza

fL

[Pepe Higdon]

GPL replay analyzer wrote :

Driver: Pepe HigdonF2 - Eagle   

Practice laps

[snip]

Lap 6: 9m57.435s [Off the track, Invalid lap]

It seems GPL replay analyzer made a difference between [Off the track] and [Off the track, Invalid lap]

In my case, I checked all my laps :
I clearly cut the chicane with 4 wheels out on lap 5, it was just after making a mistake and spun. The result was my worst lap : 2min29sec715

For all the other laps, I cut the chicane with a maximum of 2 wheels ...even if the other two wheels were very close to the white line on laps 10,12 and 13 but never entirely out of this limit.

By the way, if the moderator decides to penalize all the drivers except you and give you the victory, I will be OK and happy for you.

The "Invalid lap" notations resulted from my exiting the server and returning three times.

You don't seriously think this is about my hope to win a race, do you? I didn't have any offs (having at least two wheels on the track at the three checkpoint corners), but both Dave and Roger beat the steaming crap out of me and they didn't have any offs either. No, this is about what happens now. We had a track file that provided for automatic penalties for course-cutting. Those penalties were discarded. We've been told that "repeat offenders" would be prosecuted. Do you know what that means? I don't.

For example, you think you had one off; I counted six. Who gets to look at 25 drivers in two races going through three checkpoint corners 19 times? Not me. What constitutes a "repeat" anyway? Two offs? Eight? A dozen? Even if you can define a repeat offender, what do you do with him? Tell him not to do it again? Penalize him? How? Two seconds/lap/infraction? Ten times that? Reduction in finishing position? DQ? League banishment?

Well, maybe no one will file a protest. I didn't. Did you? So this could all just vanish until the next time we have a track with defined track limits. I'm looking forward to that one. I bet you are too.

[dave curtis]

<SNIP>
The designer of this track put a trigger in the track file that would have had you visiting the pit
<SNIP>
But wiser heads than mine concluded that was a rule we could forget in this race because shut up. I didn't much care for this decision
<SNIP>

Again,  I'm not a moderator...blah blah blah.

re: the server/checkpoint setting - there was no change from normal operation for this race.

Typically ALL servers listed in iGOR don't appear to use them.
Series moderator had already advised re: the usual 2 wheels on track/between the lines,  as per general driving guidelines.

As mentioned in the parallel Pro thread, the GPLRA help info webpage indicates:

From testing it seems that a lap is marked "Off Track" if you drive with two wheels at any time on a surface other than asphalt.

So potentially leaves scope for an indicated "off track" lap to  comply with "2 wheels on track".

NOTE: I have NOT reviewed numerous laps!


re: the actual checkpoints.  I believe (though I do not KNOW for sure) that they are similar to a slalom gate. Imaginary pairs of poles, 1 either side of the track,  at strategic positions.  However, I can't tell exactly where they would be  (I tried comparing the locations with GPLRA lap via traction circle) but was all a bit small/vague.  Maybe a track builder would have the knowledge. I admit I've not gone looking very far.

Depending on the side to side positioning,  if they were used - maybe it's possible to have not been triggered anyway?  If the "2 wheels not on asphalt" came into effect by a matter of milimetres (so off-track flag set for that lap), maybe it's still possible for the checkpoint to have been sucessfully navigated if it was used?   Depends what the parameters to register a definite track cut are. I can't tell.


Typically/thankfully, most tracks don't seem to have similar peculiarities.  However, there appear to be just a few special tracks which have requied their own clarification/advisories.

[Billy Nobrakes]

Took the junior Ferrari for this race & found out very quickly I was not going to be in any way competitive. The Fezza did run most of the slow corners like it was on rails - so I had a chance of finishing ahead of people who made more mistakes. Apart from popping an engine early on went pretty much to plan.
Note to Fabio & Cubbie - noticed you are regularly using the Protos in this series - which is just 10 token spend. The Lola BMW has the same tokens and behaves itself, unlike a wooden roller skate with an engine strapped to it. The Protos is undoubtedly fast (check Axel Cookie times at Spa67) but it seems to be the the most unstable in the F2.
Anyhow - the big debate - the chicane.
I attempted to keep two wheels on the tarmac. On the one occasion I drove across the corner - by mistake - it was a slow lap.
I don't think anyone expects the moderator to analyse everyone's race.
I would suggest we put this one down to experience & move on. There are many tracks available to race on so we can easily avoid those that are prone to corner cutting. Tracks that fall in this category would be Suzuka, Salzburg & Donnington. The second but last corner at Aintree is a contender but I'm told it can be quicker to stay on the tarmac.
 

[CubbieRoo]

Note to Fabio & Cubbie - noticed you are regularly using the Protos in this series - which is just 10 token spend. The Lola BMW has the same tokens and behaves itself, unlike a wooden roller skate with an engine strapped to it. The Protos is undoubtedly fast (check Axel Cookie times at Spa67) but it seems to be the the most unstable in the F2.

lolz  to be sure the Protos doesn't like to get unsettled, but I've been putting that down to my heavy-handed driving 'style'  (for want of a more honest pejorative word).
I will give the Lola BMW another look 

[EvilClive]

There has been a good deal of discussion around the GPL "checkpoints" and whether they should, or should not, be utilised, especially at Suzuka.

I think it would be wise to remember that at UKGPL ( and on most servers within IGOR) checkpoints are disabled for ALL circuits. The reason for this is quite simple.

UKGPL rules clearly state that two wheels should stay on the track at all times ( the white line itself counts as part of the track) and that persistant corner cutting in order to gain an advantage will be penalised. This penalty application is of course subject to the over arching condition that the moderators will only investigate reported incidents.

I was not involved in the original decision to bring in this rule, (although I have been around GPL for a long time!) but I think the recent discussion has highlighted the problems.
The Checkpoints when active are NOT on every corner
The Checkpoints are invisible and we cannot know exactly where on the track edge they are.
Any penalty Stop and Go is not consistent.

But any discussion is moot as we need not worry ourselves about any of this because we do not use the checkpoint option in UKGPL.

So, if you think that a fellow competitor is repeatedly cutting a corner and gaining advantage, submit a report to the moderators....simples.

[il_lupo_mannaro]

Note to Fabio & Cubbie - noticed you are regularly using the Protos in this series - which is just 10 token spend. The Lola BMW has the same tokens and behaves itself, unlike a wooden roller skate with an engine strapped to it. The Protos is undoubtedly fast (check Axel Cookie times at Spa67) but it seems to be the the most unstable in the F2.

Thx Billy, I'll check other cars for next races
Cheers

fL

[Pepe Higdon]

But any discussion is moot as we need not worry ourselves about any of this because we do not use the checkpoint option in UKGPL.

If this league is going to throw away checkpoint limits that are automatically set by the computer to penalize drivers who cut corners at three specified locations, it has an obligation to replace it with an equally specific rule with equally specific penalties. The league didn't do that. It does, I agree, prohibit cutting corners by requiring drivers to keep two wheels on the track at all times, but it doesn't have any coherent, definitive method of penalizing drivers who violate that rule. As far as I can understand, the penalties could range from 1-2 seconds/lap, ten times that, placement loss of varying degrees in the standings, or possibly something worse. Or you could get a caution, a warning, or nothing at all. The section on riding rails and cutting corners buried somewhere on the league's website tries to give some representative examples, but any attempt to implement those whimsical definitions will be laughably subjective. It is nothing but a pile of words that is guaranteed to produce whatever outcome is desired. Call that what you may, but don't call it law.

So, if you think that a fellow competitor is repeatedly cutting a corner and gaining advantage, submit a report to the moderators....simple.

That may look simple to Clive, but it doesn't to me. Sure, that's what it says in each race announcement: "Only reported incidents will be moderated." What that used to mean is that if another driver does something to you that you don't like, complain. But I don't know what the guys who are beating me are doing at those restricted corners. When did it become my responsibility to go through a replay and make determinations about the way some other guy is driving? Why isn't that the league's job, especially since it discarded the very method that would have made such a labor-intensive, time-consuming chore unnecessary?

But I did it anyway, and I reported what I saw in the replay in my post-race comments. Still, if I'm not going to report that a driver rear-ended me and put me at the back of the back, I'm sure as hell not going to go around looking for ways to rat out the same guys I'll be competing against in two weeks. That's the moderators' job, not mine, and I don't blame them one bit for not wanting to do it, those righteous vows of prosecuting repeat offenders notwithstanding.