UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Porsche Cup (GT) - Cernes Wood - Jul 13

[s2173]

Sorry, but why the rolling lap is not a WHOLE DAMN LAP?

I dont get it. You post a picture of a track map. To figure out what the picture says, you first have to know the track...and some come in the race completely unprepared, without ever driving said track. Also, some people cant figure out what is what just by the map - when you are on track it looks completely different, so you have to learn the track, look at the map, see corner by corner what part of the map shows what part of the track and then figure out where the rolling lap finishes. I'm not saying anything, but for some ppl around here that is too much work.

So why everything is so complicated? Why we cant have a full pace lap? No one will be bored by it, even if it's a track like nurby or spa; it's a time to prepare yourself psyhically, to focus and relax. Why is not possible for the pace lap to end at start/finish line? Why it has to end at corner? Then some will start at end of corner, other will go at the exit, some in between. Is there actually a race somewhere in the world where the race starts randomly somewhere? That's why the s/f line is there anyway, and everyone can see where it is. True, s/f line is usially at straight, and acceleration is compromised; but in venues where pace lap is used, its even part of the strategy to have a optimal gear for the end of pace lap. Whoever comes more prepared will have advantage... what is wrong with that? Instead, now we have the most unprepared having the advantage, and they wont neceserely be penalized for that.

BTW, I had a funny idea: If the lack of pace car is the problem, you can do so, that at green flag, nobody moves; instead, they wait for the car qualified last to overtake the whole field and take the lead. Then the rest of the field follows that car for the pace lap, until the car enters the pits. Race starts, and the car qualified last rejoins form the pits, last, where it started...  Not that it will work, too much discipline needed.

[Ronniepeterson]

I can't help thinking that if Tom had simply posted a comment on the forum after the race apologising for the misunderstanding at the rolling start, then the moderators could have got on with their job and this would have all been forgotten by now.

The fact that we have heard nothing from him and only his side of the sorry saga through the moderators is compounding a real sense of injustice from numerous parties, including myself. After all he did win and end up with 50 points for his team after pulling a fast one on the entire field!!!

On the subject of rolling starts I think the only hard part is remembering that there is one and surely that is not too taxing for most. The instructions could be more detailed in the race post, but I think the recent maps provided do an excellent job of explaining where the start of the race is located. As for leading the pack at a reasonable speed up to the start, it seems like common sense to me that you need to keep the pack together up to that point. However, while subjective in the absence of a max speed in the race post, I think we can all agree that the pace Tom set was too fast and he clearly gained an unfair advantage.

[clouds]

For me it is duty of every Drivers to get informed about any race, is his responsibility doing this. All the information necessary are written in the race announcement page and for me it is a surprise to know that people arrive directly on track at race time apparently knowing nothing about the race when at least a week early we make little races on the track opened by some of us. The rules are written, we have only to follow them and...in case they are not clear enough...just ask for also in chat.  
I've another idea: why don't move all right cars from right to left and left cars from left to right and also the front grid to the back in chequered pattern or better taking in count any car color or driver's ages !?!?!? 

[Hristo Itchov]

For me it is duty of every Drivers to get informed about any race, is his responsibility doing this. All the information necessary are written in the race announcement page and for me it is a surprise to know that people arrive directly on he track at race time apparently knowing nothing about the race when at least a week early we make little races on the track opened by some of us. The rules are written, we have only to follow them.

True, but as is the case with these partial rolling zones that do not cover a full lap, as Sky pointed out, it can be interpreted differently, regardless of how much you explain it. When there is not clear reference point such as a s/f line, it's impossible to keep everyone within the same rules of behaviour during the rolling start.

We've done a whole season with rolling starts back in S21. I can't speak about S22 because I missed it, but back then there were no issues regarding T1 accidents. That's the whole point of a rolling start, to avoid accidents on the start, because we run in single-file column, so there is enough room for everyone. The only incidents were due to people zig-zagging, overdoing it with throttle, going too close to others, but all that has nothing to do with running a full rolling lap. I hope we get back to normal and do full rolling laps, just like every series in real motorsport does, and abandon this unnecessary complication that only seems to breed more discontent.

[clouds]

Fulvio and me have participated also to the GPFun67 championship since several years and there...we've always used rolling starts shown in a modified map picture like the ones I've posted. This has been the 10th year for GPFun67.

[Hristo Itchov]

Fulvio and me have participated also to the GPFun67 championship since several years and there...we've always used rolling starts shown in a modified map picture like the ones I've posted. This has been the 10th year for GPFun67.

It takes a single person to have misunderstood it and you have a ruined start. It's MUCH simpler, practical and easier to just say "this division uses a rolling start" and everyone will know the race starts at the s/f line, without having to read any threads, use a map, try to figure out where exactly the starting point is and so on.

[s2173]

Hm... Tom_G is Marco Casadei, right? From my team? Team 7? Why is Supercup team 7 not the same as team 7? Oh, why I bother asking...

I dont know him actually...he is replacement for Fulvio. In registration post Fulvio says Marco is not good at english, and explains to him some things in italian. Its possible that Marco doesn't visit the forums regulary, or doesn't like forums at all. He might even be unaware of this argument. He might have misunderstood something or everything form the race post. He might have not understood anything said in the race chat. There's that side of things too.

Next time make sure that your race post contains: 1. Circuit history. 2. Entering teams 3. Brief (3000 words) description, listing all track corners in case someone doesnt know which way to turn at certain point 4. Server info 5. Rolling zone info, with animated pictures, distance from s/f line in meters, yards, light seconds, inches and centimeters, required speed, required behaviour, penalties for unproporieate behaviour 6. Translation of each of the above points in italian, french, german, hebrew, bulgarian, russian and spanish languiges 7. Transcription of the all above in brail alphabet and morze code, to not discriminate the incapitated in our small community 8. Anything else I might have forgotten...

Or you can stop overcomplicating the rules and make them just a tiny bit self explanatory for a change...

[clouds]

It takes a single person to have misunderstood it and you have a ruined start.

Yes it is obvious.

Then what is the solution ?

Awareness !

There are people that have lost time writing down any race announcement and to me it is necessary read this stuff before any race.
I don't say we have to memorize all threads but...at least the race announcement yes.

For some tracks make an entire pace lap is unpracticable, I'm thinking about Spa, Nurburgring, IOM, Interlagos and so on, thus in any case it is always necessary a to take some decision establishing where to start the race after a rolling start.

The simplest thing (that I prefer in any case) is to start normally, but like we've seen, it is a promise to have a heap at T1 with 50% of drivers involved.

[Cookie]

To clarify who is Tom -> http://gpltom.libertux.org/index.html

And yes its a pity he seems not to read all this 

[Hristo Itchov]

The simplest thing (that I prefer in any case) is to start normally, but like we've seen, it is a promise to have a heap at T1 with 50% of drivers involved.

We can always use a more spread out grid, like the one we had in the Historic Trophy race for Monsanto this season. The cars were very spread out and it helped avoid bad situations at T1. Essentially though, one has to draw the line somewhere. Drivers can learn and drive more cautiously, and avoid accidents. No point to baby-sit to such an extent...

[BadBlood]

We are not excusing Toms behaviour - it was unsporting but it has highlighted a gap in our race posts. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to make the format of the rolling start explicit, especially since several of you are fond of telling me that you don't act like children.

It has, however, proved necessary.

[Hristo Itchov]

We are not excusing Toms behaviour - it was unsporting but it has highlighted a gap in our race posts. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to make the format of the rolling start explicit, especially since several of you are fond of telling me that you don't act like children.

It has, however, proved necessary.

The only reason it proved necessary was because of using a format that is unnatural to any form of motorsport. Had we used a regular rolling start where you do a full lap first and start at the s/f line, then there will be no excuse for any driver not to conform to that. If they do, it will be clear they didn't read the rules for the division, rather than wonder whether a specific race announcement thread provides enough info or not. It's like s/g, pitstops, handicaps and all other kind of division-specific rules which you get to know before you do even a single race. With the rolling zone rule, it differs from track to track, therefore creating risks of misunderstanding every time.

And for long tracks, we can just have a standing start. It's not that much of a big deal IMO.

[maddog]

The simplest thing (that I prefer in any case) is to start normally, but like we've seen, it is a promise to have a heap at T1 with 50% of drivers involved.

 . . . . . Drivers can learn and drive more cautiously, and avoid accidents. No point to baby-sit to such an extent...

Seems to me, the reason rolling starts have been made for these cars, is because Ukgpl drivers, are either not good enough, or not careful enough.

A problem all GT's have, is their realistic sound - you sit under a roof.  Because of this, other cars are quieter than usual.  Everyone needs to realize this.  Your ears will not help you so much.  Is there any other good reason why they would have trouble starting?

As some drivers have not been safe enough, new penalties have been made this season, to slow careless drivers down.  With these, Porsche's should not need rolling starts, or are our drivers simply not good enough

[clouds]

Also in GPFun67 there were very very good drivers but...at last they've decided that a rolling start would have reduced frustrations of drivers very strong that were spun out track loosing any chance to gain a good placement. SO I think at last it is better struggle on the track than on the grass or worst upside down.

I'll show you a map chart taken from GPFun67 championship race at Hockenheimring:


1st lap only
Red means No Overtaking and low speed (leader in 2nd gear to form up on him in sigle line).
Yellow means No Overtaking and normal race speed.
Black means normal race.

We have the Yellow zone that is similar to the red zone of GPFun67 but we don't have the Yellow zone of GPFun67 because our red zone means the entire 1st lap is modded.

[Hristo Itchov]

Depends what is meant by good/bad drivers. For me a good driver is not a fast driver, nor is bad driver a slow one. I know many fast drivers who are very bad racers, who weave and block and are unaware of car positioning, and for me that in the end means a bad driver. On the other hand there are slower drivers but very fair, predictable, responsible - a pleasure to race with.

I agree with Martin - we have a new penalty system that is meant to take care of any bad driving, especially for drivers who repeatedly cause trouble. The idea is not just to penalize, but to force such drivers to see through their mistakes and improve if they want to race for the positions their pace suggests, instead of starting from the back, serving pitstops, etc.

As for GPFun, Sergio, I think such a system creates artificial kind of racing. It creates a parade for the first lap and it can lead to trouble if someone makes a mistake, loses speed, and you're not allowed to pass. As a result you lose ground to those further up ahead and that goes against my idea of racing. It's much more practical to either have a normal rolling start without any additional rules imposed, or a standing start.

It's similar to the shift-r allowance in lower divisions which really seem to spoil quality of racing because drivers know they can get away with bad driving, that it won't cost them the race and they can simply reset. When drivers with such habits enter a division where resetting is forbidden and apply those habits, it leads to unwanted situations. In that same sense, it's much more useful for long-term sake, to put drivers in conditions where they have to be responsible to avoid accidents, rather than the rules doing it for them by creating artificial gaps or preventing normal race pace through a tighter corner.