UKGPL Season 23 (2012) Privateers Trophy (67) - Mexico City - Dec 2

[BadBlood]

Bordering on 'not quite as friendly as it should be' boys.

Be good 

And as my old Mum used to say, "If you can't be good, be CAREFUL!"

[Michael Turner]

As a backmarker of vast experience please allow me my two pennorth. I have never understood why some drivers feel it necessary to overtake a backmarker as soon as they are on his tail regardless of the circumstances. Attempting a pass while negotiating a hairpin or chicane is the height of folly as neither driver is likely to be in complete control of the vehicle and needs to concentrate fully on negotiating the obstacle. My own approach is to drive my normal race and then as soon as I emerge onto the following straight to lift and allow an easy and incident free pass. If the overtaking driver cannot exercise patience until a safe pass can be achieved then I hold them fully responsible for any consequences and drive on with a clear conscience.

A Merry Christmas to one and all.

[blito]

I am keeping quiet on this until the Mod report is published as I am doing this one.... that is if anyone submits anything!

[blito]

Report published.

[il_lupo_mannaro]

thx Jason!

[Rainier]

As a backmarker of vast experience please allow me my two pennorth. I have never understood why some drivers feel it necessary to overtake a backmarker as soon as they are on his tail regardless of the circumstances. Attempting a pass while negotiating a hairpin or chicane is the height of folly as neither driver is likely to be in complete control of the vehicle and needs to concentrate fully on negotiating the obstacle. My own approach is to drive my normal race and then as soon as I emerge onto the following straight to lift and allow an easy and incident free pass. If the overtaking driver cannot exercise patience until a safe pass can be achieved then I hold them fully responsible for any consequences and drive on with a clear conscience.

A Merry Christmas to one and all.

Michael,
if your comment is not at all related to the discussion I had with Bernie, I think it is a very interesting and right remark.

But if this is related to it, I think ...you absolutly do not understand what happened and you need to watch the replay. 

because I never tried "to overtake Bernie as soon as I was on his tail" as you wrote, I was just thinking he would let me easily pass to avoid any risks of collision  and when I understood it would not be the case, I didn't try any riskly overtake.
I thought he was coming of the legendary country of "fair play" so that's why I was mistaken 

But let's  stop with this old story and let's concentrate to the next season 


Jason
Thanks for the moderation.

[blito]

This is how I would judge the incident after watching the replay.
Bernie was recovering from a spin at the chicane and had lost a number of positions and when he rejoined the track it was just in time to have David right behind him. In a split second decision Bernie covered the inside line in a defensive move. Perhaps he didn't know that David was a lap ahead as there was so little time to make that judgement. The following esses are not really a place where its easy to let a faster car through so no comment about behaviour there but the run to Peralta is another matter entirely and Bernies reluctance to ease up made David take a bit of lunge up the inside into the Peralta. In the end the pass was clean but it could have easily ended in disaster. I personally think that David showed a great deal of patience in his driving and dealt with the difficult situation very well, I also sympathise with Bernie as I know how difficult it is to make a good judgement on where you want the faster car to make its move, however the UKGPL rules as written in blood on the scroll of destiny ( aka the moderators guide ) would have favoured a mild penalty to Bernie for ignoring blue flags.
Lapping and being lapped is a skill all of its own and one we should perhaps take time to master from both sides.

[bernie]

Fine , except to add that Bernie wasn't sure which side David wanted to make a pass , as I said I gave him the racing line into the hairpin and was suprised he didnt or couldn't take advantage ( I was not as you say defending ) . The same thing at the peralta , check out my entry speed ,  what happened in between was up to david , I was doing my own race , the fact is that  the leader , Phil,  had passed me whilst I was recovering from my own mistake and was some way ahead of david , It was the last lap david didnt have a cats chance in hell of catching Phil let alone passing him before the flag .I didnt think I was spoiling anyones race its not as if they were close together , david lost the race when he spun , now he wants to blame me for it , I can understand his disapointment but i dont understand when he has already won  the championship why he is making so much of this ?

I repeat again , I did not block David , I never have blocked anyone (not wilfully)  and I never will .

Daves Lotus was considerably faster than my Brabham , he questions my sportsmanship , which I find to be pretty derogatory , sorry but I dont understand his attitude here
I had enough points to take the Lotus both here and at other tracks but chose to drive the brabham because I happen to think it was more sporting to give a chance to less experienced drivers , I even tried the BRM on occasion and personally get a lot more satisfaction from doing well in a lesser car than I would winning with the Lotus .

[blito]

Fine , except to add that Bernie wasn't sure which side David wanted to make a pass , as I said I gave him the racing line into the hairpin and was suprised he didnt or couldn't take advantage ( I was not as you say defending ) .

Obviously I have watched the replay from both cockpits as well as every other camera angle and whilst I believe what you are saying its not completely apparent from the replays. If I had been the driver that was lapping you I think I would have been equally as cautious as David was although I may not have vented my fustration in public. Had I been the car that was being lapped I think I would have tried to have gotten out of the way somewhere sooner.
I have raced wheel to wheel with you, Bernie, on many occasions and I trust your on track judgement and your sportsmanship so please don't feel that anyone is having a dig at you personally. Please be assured that my comments in the previous post are based purely on the moderators guidelines ( which include example scenarios ) and are not my personal opinion of you (or David) as drivers.
(As an aside, I was once dragged before the moderators on a charge of ignoring the blue flags when being lapped. My (drunken) response apparently caused much merriment among the then moderator team.... especially as I was accusing one of the fastest and most accomplished drivers in GPL at being unable to lap slower cars safely! Ahem..... )  
Anyhow, this incident wasn't reported, it hasn't been moderated and I think we can safely move on to something more pleasant.

 I even tried the BRM on occasion and personally get a lot more satisfaction from doing well in a lesser car than I would winning with the Lotus .

Same here - I love taking the BRM for a run out. I know I cannot realistically challenge for victories so I run whatever car I fancy and settle down to hopefully have a good race against whoever is running at my pace. As you say, getting a decent result in a crap car is hugely satisfying.

[Rainier]

...although I may not have vented my fustration in public...

Yes, it was a hot reaction due to deception. I regret it, now.
What I find interesting to discuss is how we should react as a backmarkers when the leaders are going to overlap you.

Yesterday, I have been several times in this situation during F2 races at Jops Siffert.
there are some parts of this track where it is more difficult to overtake than in the Mexico Esses.
And as I didn't want to interfere on the fight between Hristo, Göran and Al (Heller), I almost stop my car several times to let them pass.
I could have been thinking "I am doing my own race and nobody has a "cats chance in hell" of catching Hristo" but I didn't !
And effectively, Hristo made an error and Al won !

[Al Heller]

Yesterday, I have been several times in this situation during F2 races at Jops Siffert.
there are some parts of this track where it is more difficult to overtake than in the Mexico Esses.
And as I didn't want to interfere on the fight between Hristo, Göran and Al (Heller), I almost stop my car several times to let them pass.
I could have been thinking "I am doing my own race and nobody has a "cats chance in hell" of catching Hristo" but I didn't !
And effectively, Hristo made an error and Al won !

Your courtesy is very much appreciated Dave. Not just in yesterday's race but also throughout the season in 66's where you always make huge efforts to avoid blocking anyone in both qualifying & the races. Looking forward to repaying the favour sometime

[blito]

I must say, David, you were perhaps a little too polite in moving over when I had to lap you  in the 66 event at Silverstone a few days ago. Although I wasn't expecting you to slow where you did you made it perfectly clear to me where you wanted me to make the pass and we pulled the move off nice and cleanly. Again, every lapping move requires co-operation between both drivers and whilst curtosy from the slower driver is to be expected it should not necesarily come at the expense of the lapped drivers own race and no front running driver should expect the slower guys to just pull over and "almost come to a stop". Sometimes it just takes a little patience to wait for the right moment.
Curtosy and Patience are the orders of the day.

[Ronniepeterson]

Clearly there is no single correct answer on how to lap or be lapped. In my opinion anyone being lapped should under no circumstances race/contest the car lapping them into the next corner whatever line they are using. If politely giving way in a tight corner/set of corners is not possible then allow the car past on the next available straight and stay back out of the way until they have cleared the next corner. I try to adhere to this strategy myself whatever the stage of the race.

[Phil Thornton]

Lapping cars is all part of the game.  The rules (see here) are clear, both drivers have a responsibility to ensure the lapping is clean.  However the most important things are for the lapped driver to drive predictably and for the lapping driver to be patient.  The lapped driver can try to make it easier for the lapping driver but if in doubt drive the normal racing line (i.e, predicable) and do not try to defend the position.  It is up to the lapping driver to pick a safe place to pass and once an overtaking attempt is underway the lapped driver should not contest the pass.

Drivers must expect to loose some time lapping backmarkers and I accept that this can be frustrating.  I've been a lapping driver and a lapped driver many times and I haven't been involved in many incidents.  So I think the rules as they are are adequate. 

For the record I don't think Bernie affected the outcome of the race.  It would have needed a mistake from me to give David a chance of the win.  I have been known to make mistakes but thankfully on this occasion I stayed cool .

[bernie]

Totally agree with Phil and Ronnie ( cant beleive I said that ) the worst thing for any driver being lapped to do is slow down or change postition in a manner which is unpredictable .
In seasons past I raced 67's in the Pro league , I moved down to the Privs because I found I was way to slow and got more than a little tired of getting lapped by almost the entire pro field at most tracks , I was often being lapped twice and on the odd occasion 3 times per race .
I didnt get many complaints from those who were lapping me , in fact I am proud to say I got compliments from Hristo Itchov for my backmarker driving . even though I took him out on one memorable occasion .

I think Hristo is on record as saying more or less the same thing as above , and he has probably lapped more drivers than anyone here , so should know what he'se talking about .

I wouldnt want to change the rules either as I know what nightmares can be caused by drivers slowing suddenly or diving off the line to get out of the way and "help" the driver who is about to lap him .
 
And yes I could have lifted off for david , but what if he had had to swerve for me or I caused a rear ender ? would he have been happy then , I dont think so !

That is exactly what happened in the recent F2 race at Bremgarten when I made a mistake , moved off line and took the race leader off who was lapping me at the time , fortunately he recovered unharmed and was able to drive on,  but the F2 mod crash boxes are a lot more forgiving than the 67's as we all know ,  add in the chances of a warp contact making a disaster even more likely

So hopefully we have all learned something from this discussion and can now move on , perhaps take some of it on board for next season , though I doubt it will be the last time we here from disgruntled drivers who have had incedents arising from cars being lapped .