UKGPL Season 24 Funrace - Le Mans - Jun 21 and 23

[maddog]

60fps is strange, because many notice a visual improvement, but some don't.  On a high speed track such as Le Mans, I much prefer it, and my old computer had no problem running it, with the Can-Am cars last night.  But to do this, I ran only the basic track with no addons, and detail at 50%.  I suspect even those, interested only in safer collisions, could safely run at 60, but some would need to turn their graphics down first.

So, on my computer, I gained some visual improvement, but at the cost of detail.  Also beware - Cookie broke his steering wheel last night, while using 60fps.  Motor Racing at 60 can be dangerous to your wealth!  

 

[Cookie]

My conclusion...

Perhaps a division running 60fps would bring in more people to UKGPL. There are more than enough divisions running without 60 fps for those who can't run it yet.

The big advantage that I've found is that minor collisions are much less violent affairs. AFAIK the physics engine in GPL determines the severity of it's reaction to contact from the amount overlap in the collision boxes between frames. If this is being checked every 60th of a second instead of every 36th, there's much less time for overlap to develop.
...but would prefer 60 solely for the reason that anything that makes online contact less of a race-ending lottery is a good thing

Deans point about collision boxes seems logical

I suspect even those, interested only in safer collisions, could safely run at 60, but some would need to turn their graphics down first.

The "holy cow" 65 and 67s

...but it won't happen in the Tuesday and Sunday slots.

IMO this are the series where the closest racing is celebrated.
I remember several incidents this season in 65s and 67s where the crashbox was found guilty!

Yes 60fps needs a little more PC power, but the 67 and 65s need much less than GTs and CAs...

I bet even Gareth's PC would not have any problem with those mods @ 60fps.

To proove it I will do a FunRace tomorrow with 65s on the Moon with 60fpsV2newmod (+ 67s next week)

[john roberts]

The big advantage that I've found is that minor collisions are much less violent affairs. AFAIK the physics engine in GPL determines the severity of it's reaction to contact from the amount overlap in the collision boxes between frames. If this is being checked every 60th of a second instead of every 36th, there's much less time for overlap to develop. I've even bump-drafted in 69 cars at Monza (intentionally!) (on a low-lag server, mind) with neither car being launched into orbit.

i would think this was smoother because you are getting more packets of data and i believe you could run higher number of packets on standard version of gpl . having said that i'd agree with you when you say it's more to do with lag , we all have had the problem of racing close to a driver on wifi as they are dropped for a second and running the 60 fps aint going to help that . maybe tests should be done on a normal gpl server with more packets ?

[garethhall]

The "holy cow" 65 and 67s
[I bet even Gareth's PC would not have any problem with those mods @ 60fps.

To proove it I will do a FunRace tomorrow with 65s on the Moon with 60fpsV2newmod (+ 67s next week)

your right, Can am seems to be the prob. Tho i have never raced 65 @ 60 fps, tho i think it should be fine.

[Cookie]

maybe tests should be done on a normal gpl server with more packets ?

I am allready doing this with UKGPL_8 the whole last season...

2/84 2/384 for 36fps

4/84 4/384 for 60fps

You can see it at the replays being much bigger

[Hristo Itchov]

I agree that 65 or 67 with 60fps would be a good start. Both are lighter on the system compared to other mods and both would benefit more from the improved precision of contacts between cars, although I don't really think that should be a reason to run 60 fps. We're not supposed to bump into others just because there is improvement in the collision detection/response. Personally I'm very sensitive towards fps and the difference of 60 vs. 36 is very noticeable. The only issue, as someone mentioned, is when you can't maintain those 60 at all times, similarly to how it gets uncomfortable when you drop below 36.

[DLogan]

The big advantage that I've found is that minor collisions are much less violent...

i would think this was smoother because you are getting more packets of data...

No. The server in question was running "5/xx" timings which give the exact same number of packets as "3/xx" at 36fps (every 1/12th of a second).

And I've been running my (local) server at "1/xx" for the last few months (both 36 and 60, with several different mods, no one has made negative comments, only positive from those who even noticed [mostly of the "other cars don't jump around as much" variety]), and haven't noticed the "pinball lottery" collision physics improving. Replay sizes are significantly larger (up to 5 times as big for 1/xx at 60 than 3/xx at 36, which makes sense if you work through the maths).

...We're not supposed to bump into others just because there is improvement in the collision detection/response...

Did anyone here intentionally start getting into more accidents when cars started coming with seatbelts? If so, please let me know what countries you drive in so I may avoid them. 

[Hristo Itchov]

...We're not supposed to bump into others just because there is improvement in the collision detection/response...

Did anyone here intentionally start getting into more accidents when cars started coming with seatbelts? If so, please let me know what countries you drive in so I may avoid them. 

Huh?

[DLogan]

...Huh?

If improved collision detection is a reason to start bumping into each other (as implied by your previous post), then seatbelts are a reason to have car accidents.

[s2173]

60 fps runs at my computer, but i notice no inprovement in visuals... Keep in mind, despite all these little benefits you mentioned, GPL is not made to be run at 60 fps, and there will likely be some server load problems, client side problems...If someone is getting 54 fps instead of full 60, will the case with collision boxes be the same or it will be much worse? Will all tracks work equally well? What about the mods? Will the replays still be legit? Can the servers handle the load? Even with 36 fps and 67 mod we get wierd things like screenfreeses and stuff.

Also, there are leagues out there that already run 60 fps, and most likely know their way around problems better.

Anyway, I wouldnt mind having a 60 fps server at friday... I will rarely be racing then. 67 and 65... well, we could try for a season, if you are so curious to see what will happen, but I dont see any point in it.

[DLogan]

...60 fps runs at my computer, but i notice no inprovement in visuals...

60 was written by brr because he got a new LCD monitor that really didn't like 36fps. There may be others in the same situation, kept away from GPL for that reason, and they may increase our numbers.

...Keep in mind, despite all these little benefits you mentioned, GPL is not made to be run at 60 fps...

Because GPL was written in 1998, when the average computer was a Pentium (such as my 100MHz, and they were all single-core), they had to sacrifice performance just to get it to run.

...and there will likely be some server load problems, client side problems...

Again, because of when it was written. Most people had a 14K or 28K modem. You can _almost_ run a full field on a 28K modem. If there's anyone here still on dial-up, we won't let them serve official races. OK?

...If someone is getting 54 fps instead of full 60, will the case with collision boxes be the same or it will be much worse?...

No reason to think that 54 will be worse than 36. And anyways, your computer is still running the game at 36 or 60, it's just not rendering it fast enough (separate parts of the game engine).

...Will all tracks work equally well?...

Haven't found any that don't work on 60. The heavier-load ones at 36 will still be heavier at 60.

...What about the mods?...

All are compatible (note, there are 3 [well, 4, but the original 60fpsV1 has been superseded by 60fpsV1AI which features better AI behaviour, but they're mutually compatible] different 60fps patches: for the GT cars use V1 [or V1AI], for the 67s use V2, all else use V2newmod). All are selectable (and unselectable) by opening GEM+, clicking a box, and closing GEM+, a process that takes maximum 10 seconds.

...Will the replays still be legit?...

What do you mean by "legit"? GPLRank accepts 60fps replays for WRs (but please specify which it is when submitting).

...Can the servers handle the load? Even with 36 fps and 67 mod we get wierd things like screenfreeses and stuff...

Almost always caused by a track problem. Sector misalignments are a trackmaker's bugbear. Sometimes it's a communication issue, but I haven't found 60 to be any worse than 36. And I'm sorry, but anyone trying to game online over whatever sort of wireless should really know better. This isn't Farmville.

...but I dont see any point in it.

Have you ever lost a season championship to what should have been only a minor bump, but GPL sent you over the fence?

[s2173]

There may be others in the same situation, kept away from GPL for that reason, and they may increase our numbers.

But some others might dislike 60 fps enough to leave and go to other leagues.

No reason to think that 54 will be worse than 36. And anyways, your computer is still running the game at 36 or 60, it's just not rendering it fast enough (separate parts of the game engine).

Actually, 54 is much worse than 30. Im not so sure its different part of the game engine, and how it will effect the packets that are send and recieved.

Have you ever lost a season championship to what should have been only a minor bump, but GPL sent you over the fence?

No...and every time I was send in the air because of minor bump, it was because of lag form one of the drivers. And I have had alot of paintscraping races with multiple minor bumps and no significant problems, when the connections were good...  Also, I think this has much to do with the hitbox of the particular mod, 67's and 65's being quite good and canams not so good. Im not so sure 60 fps will fix these issues... tho it might be interesting to test it for example at bloodbath with bumpdrafting, with multiple mods and 60 fps on and off, to see if it will make a difference in practice, and not just on paper.

[Hristo Itchov]

...Huh?

If improved collision detection is a reason to start bumping into each other (as implied by your previous post), then seatbelts are a reason to have car accidents.

The way most people here imply that the benefit of 60 fps is improved collision detection suggests that the visual/animation improvement isn't the main reason people want to use 60 fps.   And it has nothing to do with my personal reason of using 60 fps, I'm only supporting it for the fps improvement, not the improved collisions...

Have you ever lost a season championship to what should have been only a minor bump, but GPL sent you over the fence?

Like this...

Honestly, it's the same for everyone, you can't excuse yourself from losing a championship because you got the bad end of a warp contact. It evens out for everyone over a season, more or less.

[Podkrecony_Ziutek]

Just to remind everyone why we do not use the 60fps: UKGPL Season 17 (2009) - 60fps Test Race - 65 Mod - Monza - Feb 25

It was few years ago and I assume that this patch have been improved. But until we test it on few tracks with full grids I'm against using it in our regular championships.

[Cookie]

Just to remind everyone why we do not use the 60fps: UKGPL Season 17 (2009) - 60fps Test Race - 65 Mod - Monza - Feb 25

It was few years ago and I assume that this patch have been improved. But until we test it on few tracks with full grids I'm against using it in our regular championships.

Not only the patch has improved but also the PCs used by 99% of the drivers!

I'm only supporting it for the fps improvement

Yeah, that is allways the main argument of course, but the improved collision detection is a great advantage for the drivers in close racing battles